Nihil Obstat Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1307980823' post='2253167'] There is no modern hymnody. There is merely modern song writing. [/quote] They think it's hymnody at least. I include Haas and Haugen and Canedo in that disastrous group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307982931' post='2253188'] They think it's hymnody at least. I include Haas and Haugen and Canedo in that disastrous group. [/quote] Some of their stuff is actually nice. I think I have a recording of Haugen and friends doing a rustic sort of rendition of "How Can I Keep From Singing?" that's great to listen to when strolling through the woods on a Summer day (or doing similar Thoreauvian activities). It's just that it isn't appropriate for mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1307973681' post='2253131'] While I agree contemporary music can be fine; I do not think it should be given 'pride of place'. I think therein lies the difference. [/quote] [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307974334' post='2253136'] Are we talking about contemporary [b]secular[/b] music or contemporary [b]Christian/Catholic[/b] music? If it's the former than I 100% agree; if it's the latter, I do not. [/quote] [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307981523' post='2253173'] We are in accord, numskull: secular music should NOT be in the mass. Surely your thickheadedness isn't causing you to conflate "secular" (re: NON-Christian) music with contemporary (re: NON-traditional) Christian/Catholic music, is it? [/quote] You wanna run through that again? I'm a little confused where you actually stand. Because the first thing you said sounds like you're ok with secular, but now you're saying you're not... I think you may have mixed up your use of "former" and "latter"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1307986037' post='2253210'] Some of their stuff is actually nice. I think I have a recording of Haugen and friends doing a rustic sort of rendition of "How Can I Keep From Singing?" that's great to listen to when strolling through the woods on a Summer day (or doing similar Thoreauvian activities). It's just that it isn't appropriate for mass. [/quote] That's exactly it. If people want to listen to that outside of Mass, that's great. Personally, I think most of it is absolute cr[u][/u]ap, but on the other hand I listen to stuff like this: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOPU1JDEAUc[/media] and this: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QB7ugJnHgs[/media] so I'm not about to criticize odd musical choices. In Mass though, I certainly will criticize, because the Church has been exceedingly clear about what our sacred music *should* be like. There is an objective measure by which we are to judge all music for the Mass. That's the big difference. When it comes to sacred music, we've lost to debate as soon as we concede the hidden premise that music at Mass is based on taste. It is not. It is about worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1307986288' post='2253213'] You wanna run through that again? I'm a little confused where you actually stand. Because the first thing you said sounds like you're ok with secular, but now you're saying you're not... I think you may have mixed up your use of "former" and "latter"... [/quote] No sum up: Secular- NO!!!!! Contemporary Christian/Catholic- Maybe!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307986578' post='2253215'] No sum up: Secular- NO!!!!! Contemporary Christian/Catholic- Maybe!!! [/quote] Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureSister2009 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 This reminds me of a Christmas Eve at my Parish a few years ago. I was serving at a Mass and our former folk group was singing. It was Communion and there was a huge crowd there, it was practically standing room. They sang all the Sacred Music they had and there was still a little time. So they decided to throw something else in. I don't know if you guys ever heard of the song Happy Christmas, I can't remember who sang it, I think it was John Lennon or one of the Beatles. Anyway, they started singing that and as a result, they turned the microphones off on them! I found out later that they got permission to sing it at the end of Mass when everyone was leaving but they didn't listen. I think they just ran out of stuff to sing so they thought they could get away with it. After that night, the folk group quit. It's a shame because they were well liked. Personally I like the song a lot but I know it doesn't belong in Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 That's a good illustration of the point I was making earlier. They took it personally and quit. If I said to folk choirs around the world 'right lads, pack up your guitars and start singing gregorian chant' I could safely assume the majority of them would just quit singing in the choir altogether, and some may even stop attending Mass. Now, obviously that is a bad attitude, but I really want to know how we can educate people 'gently' - is it possible, or am I destined to a lifetime of people throwing hissy fits at me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1307987673' post='2253233'] That's a good illustration of the point I was making earlier. They took it personally and quit. If I said to folk choirs around the world 'right lads, pack up your guitars and start singing gregorian chant' I could safely assume the majority of them would just quit singing in the choir altogether, and some may even stop attending Mass. Now, obviously that is a bad attitude, but I really want to know how we can educate people 'gently' - is it possible, or am I destined to a lifetime of people throwing hissy fits at me? [/quote] I think some people will throw hissy fits regardless, because people just want things their own way and will make anything they are told personal. But I do think that sometimes people go about the education poorly and just sort of steamroll them with the "facts" instead of actually educating and explaining in a way they can understand, all in the name of "truth". I definitely think there needs to be a pastoral aspect to it. That being said, there isn't any excuse why there shouldn't be changes made. And I think it would work out a lot better if everywhere was consistent about it. Then people couldn't just pout and say, "Well, fine, I'll go over to this other parish where they accept people like me!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaPetiteSoeur Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Secular--absolutely not. Same goes for liturgical dancing. It's tacky. Other Christian denominational music: within reason. Many of the hymns in the Catholic [i]Gather[/i] book are indeed Protestant in origen. Any written by Charles Wesley (brother of John Wesley, founder of Methodism) or that say orinially in the [i]Lutheran Book of Common Worship[/i] are Protestant. My organist is Moravian, and we regularly sing Moravian hymns. As long as the text is acceptable in the Church Doctrine, it's fine. Catholic: Nothing, absolutely nothing, beats the good, old Catholic hymns. Give me them anyday! Latin and Chant are a.wesome. Some of the new ones though, are a bit...questionable. I don't like "singing as though I am God", ie, "I will come to you in the silence." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1307988720' post='2253244'] I don't like "singing as though I am God", ie, "I will come to you in the silence." [/quote] We humans can come to God in the silence, too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1307987673' post='2253233'] That's a good illustration of the point I was making earlier. They took it personally and quit. If I said to folk choirs around the world 'right lads, pack up your guitars and start singing gregorian chant' I could safely assume the majority of them would just quit singing in the choir altogether, and some may even stop attending Mass. Now, obviously that is a bad attitude, but I really want to know how we can educate people 'gently' - is it possible, or am I destined to a lifetime of people throwing hissy fits at me? [/quote] This really cuts to the heart of the matter, imo. If we stand smugly with our noses poised perfectly in the air, we should not be surprised of our failure. I think the solution rests in to areas. First is education. It is one thing to be TOLD "This is how we do it, this is hwo it has been done. Conform you modernistic scum."..It is quite another to be taught the history of say, chant, from the Church's perspective. To be taught how important it is and how it is properly ordered toward worship. Second is more pastoral perhaps; but make them part/partners of/in the solution. But then, of course, there are times no matter what you do, no matter what you say, no matter how hard you try; people will choose to be hurt, and will leave. But I don't think we can let that deter the work that needs to be done. It's a balance, I suppose.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='FutureSister2009' timestamp='1307987267' post='2253225'] This reminds me of a Christmas Eve at my Parish a few years ago. I was serving at a Mass and our former folk group was singing. It was Communion and there was a huge crowd there, it was practically standing room. They sang all the Sacred Music they had and there was still a little time. So they decided to throw something else in. I don't know if you guys ever heard of the song Happy Christmas, I can't remember who sang it, I think it was John Lennon or one of the Beatles. Anyway, they started singing that and as a result, they turned the microphones off on them! I found out later that they got permission to sing it at the end of Mass when everyone was leaving but they didn't listen. I think they just ran out of stuff to sing so they thought they could get away with it. After that night, the folk group quit. It's a shame because they were well liked. Personally I like the song a lot but I know it doesn't belong in Church. [/quote] umm, they could have just had *actual* sacred silence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) By pointing out that certain instruments that are for the most part associated with secular music and therefore aren't adaptable for sacred use, it seems to suggest to me that the church isn't just stating that obvious secular music as we know it today is wrong for the mass (i.e. playing the Beatles in mass) -- it also seems to suggest that even contemporary Christian music that specifically mimics secular music shouldn't be used in the mass, either. (I distinguish this from contemporary music that is timeless and written well! Lord knows, Silent Night isn't Gregorian Chant, but it is a holy and classic hymn that brings me to tears every Christmas.) A lot of the music that was played at the "contemporary" mass at my old parish was no different than what I heard on the Christian Billboard charts. And the style was no different than secular music. That's usually the point of it -- it offers the perks of secular music but with a better message. People may say in their personal opinion that stuff like this is okay in the mass, but again I'm brought back to the question of where this is stated in Church writing on liturgical music. Writings seem to suggest that it's unsuitable and not what the Council ever intended. [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307972579' post='2253126'] Could this be a false dichotomy? Must there be a schism between the "sacred" and the "secular?" [/quote] The Church clearly states that there is a difference between the two, though. I was thinking about all this on my train ride home, and I think one of the reasons this all came about is because of how difficult it really is to enforce these things. It's pretty difficult to just figuratively "push people into ice cold water" -- if you will. Perhaps in addition to people learning more about writings on sacred music (myself included), perhaps on a parish level some modern authors of sacred music (like some from that video) could be introduced into the catalog of songs already there, and seeds could be planted here and there. On a personal level, I don't hate all secular style Christian music, myself. If people want to have jam sessions, concerts, World Youth Day celebrations and rallies, I think that's cool. I just think there's a difference between that and what is solemn and sacred in the mass. I like to think that the Church in her wisdom wants there to be a space in our crazy world and day to day lives where we have a full experience of the transcendent and eternal when we are at mass. God knows we all need it. Edited June 13, 2011 by Ash Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' timestamp='1307990200' post='2253254'] I don't hate all secular style Christian music, myself... [/quote] Can you have "secular-style Christian music?" I mean, isn't that like having an ice cold glass of hot coffee? This seems to be a common theme throughout this discussion. "Secular" and "modern/contemporary" are NOT the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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