Sacred Music Vs. Secular Music In The Mass

[carmenchristi]

This is a great video! Really well done. And as the video says, the church documents expose quite thoroughly what is appropriately called liturgical music. Music isn't an accessory to the liturgy, it is PART of the liturgy and therefore subject to specific ecclesiastical legislation. BTW the songs and especially the settings of the Ordinary (that is, Gloria, Sanctus... the things that are always the same) should be approved by the local bishop or episcopal conference.

[kujo]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1307978462' post='2253149']
point of clarification..

you feel both contemporary secular music and contemporary Christian/Catholic music are acceptable? not sure if I was reading you wrong, but are you against Christian/Catholic music?




Where are we mandated/allowed/permitted to use purely secular music in the Mass?

I think you stated previously that not ALL secular music would be appropriate for Mass. What if other people are not as 'stringent' as you? (lol, only cuz i know you) Don't you think it opens a rather precarious door to a rather slippery slope? explain why or why not.


If you wish.. I can just accept your defeat now.
[/quote]

LOL. I concede NOTHING, [i]especially[/i] to you.

It's simple: I'm sure that there is an argument that could be made for the inclusion of secular music into the mass. However, I am of the opinion that that argument would fail to win over a [i]stringent[/i] person such as myself. The notion that a slippery slope exists is proof positive, in my opinion; you shouldn't have to worry about content management when it comes to the mass. And while I am very much in favor of including contemporary Christian and Catholic songs/hymns/mass settings into the mass where it's appropriate. For the most part, the songs would fall into line with the Church and its teachings. Similarly, it would connect the congregation to the fact that (as LIFE TEEN famously says) "the mass never ends, it MUST BE LIVED!" Being able to turn on the radio in your car and hear the song they sung during Communion is a powerful way to keep people engaged in the liturgical mindset, provided the songs selected are appropriate. That's where the Choir Director(s) at the parish need to be considerate and knowledgeable before allowing the inclusion of the music.

I hope that answers your question. I know how you dense you Bostonians can be, so if you'd like me to dumb it down for you and maybe use smaller words, I'd be happy to oblige

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307951302' post='2253078']If all were aware of that, many more would no longer accept the absolutely insipid hymnody that passes for music in the average community parish.

[/quote]
There is no modern hymnody. There is merely modern song writing.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307980192' post='2253162']
LOL. I concede NOTHING, [i]especially[/i] to you.

It's simple: I'm sure that there is an argument that could be made for the inclusion of secular music into the mass. However, I am of the opinion that that argument would fail to win over a [i]stringent[/i] person such as myself. The notion that a slippery slope exists is proof positive, in my opinion; you shouldn't have to worry about content management when it comes to the mass. And while I am very much in favor of including contemporary Christian and Catholic songs/hymns/mass settings into the mass where it's appropriate. For the most part, the songs would fall into line with the Church and its teachings. Similarly, it would connect the congregation to the fact that (as LIFE TEEN famously says) "the mass never ends, it MUST BE LIVED!" Being able to turn on the radio in your car and hear the song they sung during Communion is a powerful way to keep people engaged in the liturgical mindset, provided the songs selected are appropriate. That's where the Choir Director(s) at the parish need to be considerate and knowledgeable before allowing the inclusion of the music.

I hope that answers your question. I know how you dense you Bostonians can be, so if you'd like me to dumb it down for you and maybe use smaller words, I'd be happy to oblige
[/quote]

You're so cute when you type alot and don't say anything!!

While I think it nifty if I could turn on the radio and hear the song they sung during Communion; fads fade quickly and tradition lives eternal. Granted, I am all for the notion that the "Mass never ends...et al"; I guess I just do not see secular music (because of it "fadiness") as a good vehicle to accomplish this.

(you just need to tap once, and I'll stop)

[Noel's angel]

Why are so many people being so passive-agressive? Can we not have a serious discussion about this without getting little our little digs at each other under the table?

Ash, I think most Catholics are shocked to hear many of the truths of the Second Vatican Council. So many people say to me 'well Vatican II changed that' and I end up telling them what the documents actually said, but normally it makes little difference and just makes them angry. The best one was 'the Pope doesn't like traditionalists like you,' (bearing in mind I've never been to Mass in the Extraordinary Form in my life and have no great desire to do so). Most people rely on their priests to inform them properly, and many just simply don't want to hear things that don't suit them (I'm certainly not saying this is the case with you). I think the case of music is a difficult one because of the 'artistic temper' and also because of the effect music has on emotions. People become attached to hymns and when you tell them that their granny's favourite hymn really isn't acceptable for use during Mass, you're in for a fight because you'll always have a 'Father so-and-so' who let them sing that hymn all the time.

What I would like to see in the near future is a more precise directive on sacred music - something that cannot be bent or twisted to suit any argument.

[kujo]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1307981355' post='2253171']
You're so cute when you type alot and don't say anything!!

While I think it nifty if I could turn on the radio and hear the song they sung during Communion; fads fade quickly and tradition lives eternal. Granted, I am all for the notion that the "Mass never ends...et al"; I guess I just do not see secular music (because of it "fadiness") as a good vehicle to accomplish this.

(you just need to tap once, and I'll stop)
[/quote]

We are in accord, numskull: secular music should NOT be in the mass. Surely your thickheadedness isn't causing you to conflate "secular" (re: NON-Christian) music with contemporary (re: NON-traditional) Christian/Catholic music, is it?

[kujo]

[quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1307981367' post='2253172']
Why are so many people being so passive-agressive? Can we not have a serious discussion about this without getting little our little digs at each other under the table?
[/quote]

If you are referring to the back and forth between MiKolbe and I, fear not: it's nothing but brotherly busting of chops. We do this offline, on Facebook, all the time.

[MIKolbe]

I love you, Kujo.

[kujo]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1307981754' post='2253175']
I love you, Kujo.
[/quote]

[img]http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-set/BQcDAAAAAwoDanBnAAAABC5vdXQKFmNPQTA2UTczM2hHeWVlUjRKNXFFS0EAAAACaWQKAXgAAAAEc2l6ZQ.jpg[/img]

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307981612' post='2253174']
If you are referring to the back and forth between MiKolbe and I, fear not: it's nothing but brotherly busting of chops. We do this offline, on Facebook, all the time.
[/quote]

Nah, I was struck by the stench of bad attitude from page 1. I wasn't referring specifically to the two of you, but I'm glad you love each other.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1307980823' post='2253167']
There is no modern hymnody. There is merely modern song writing.
[/quote]
They think it's hymnody at least.
I include Haas and Haugen and Canedo in that disastrous group.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307982931' post='2253188']
They think it's hymnody at least.
I include Haas and Haugen and Canedo in that disastrous group.
[/quote]
Some of their stuff is actually nice. I think I have a recording of Haugen and friends doing a rustic sort of rendition of "How Can I Keep From Singing?" that's great to listen to when strolling through the woods on a Summer day (or doing similar Thoreauvian activities). It's just that it isn't appropriate for mass.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1307973681' post='2253131']
While I agree contemporary music can be fine; I do not think it should be given 'pride of place'. I think therein lies the difference.
[/quote]


[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307974334' post='2253136']
Are we talking about contemporary [b]secular[/b] music or contemporary [b]Christian/Catholic[/b] music? If it's the former than I 100% agree; if it's the latter, I do not.
[/quote]


[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307981523' post='2253173']
We are in accord, numskull: secular music should NOT be in the mass. Surely your thickheadedness isn't causing you to conflate "secular" (re: NON-Christian) music with contemporary (re: NON-traditional) Christian/Catholic music, is it?
[/quote]

You wanna run through that again? I'm a little confused where you actually stand. Because the first thing you said sounds like you're ok with secular, but now you're saying you're not... I think you may have mixed up your use of "former" and "latter"...

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1307986037' post='2253210']
Some of their stuff is actually nice. I think I have a recording of Haugen and friends doing a rustic sort of rendition of "How Can I Keep From Singing?" that's great to listen to when strolling through the woods on a Summer day (or doing similar Thoreauvian activities). It's just that it isn't appropriate for mass.
[/quote]
That's exactly it. If people want to listen to that outside of Mass, that's great. Personally, I think most of it is absolute cr[u][/u]ap, but on the other hand I listen to stuff like this:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOPU1JDEAUc[/media]
and this:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QB7ugJnHgs[/media]
so I'm not about to criticize odd musical choices.
In Mass though, I certainly will criticize, because the Church has been exceedingly clear about what our sacred music *should* be like. There is an objective measure by which we are to judge all music for the Mass. That's the big difference.

When it comes to sacred music, we've lost to debate as soon as we concede the hidden premise that music at Mass is based on taste. It is not. It is about worship.

[kujo]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1307986288' post='2253213']
You wanna run through that again? I'm a little confused where you actually stand. Because the first thing you said sounds like you're ok with secular, but now you're saying you're not... I think you may have mixed up your use of "former" and "latter"...
[/quote]

No sum up:

Secular- NO!!!!!

Contemporary Christian/Catholic- Maybe!!!

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307986578' post='2253215']
No sum up:

Secular- NO!!!!!

Contemporary Christian/Catholic- Maybe!!!
[/quote]

Thanks.

[FutureSister2009]

This reminds me of a Christmas Eve at my Parish a few years ago. I was serving at a Mass and our former folk group was singing. It was Communion and there was a huge crowd there, it was practically standing room. They sang all the Sacred Music they had and there was still a little time. So they decided to throw something else in. I don't know if you guys ever heard of the song Happy Christmas, I can't remember who sang it, I think it was John Lennon or one of the Beatles. Anyway, they started singing that and as a result, they turned the microphones off on them! I found out later that they got permission to sing it at the end of Mass when everyone was leaving but they didn't listen. I think they just ran out of stuff to sing so they thought they could get away with it. After that night, the folk group quit. It's a shame because they were well liked. Personally I like the song a lot but I know it doesn't belong in Church.

[Noel's angel]

That's a good illustration of the point I was making earlier. They took it personally and quit. If I said to folk choirs around the world 'right lads, pack up your guitars and start singing gregorian chant' I could safely assume the majority of them would just quit singing in the choir altogether, and some may even stop attending Mass. Now, obviously that is a bad attitude, but I really want to know how we can educate people 'gently' - is it possible, or am I destined to a lifetime of people throwing hissy fits at me?

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1307987673' post='2253233']
That's a good illustration of the point I was making earlier. They took it personally and quit. If I said to folk choirs around the world 'right lads, pack up your guitars and start singing gregorian chant' I could safely assume the majority of them would just quit singing in the choir altogether, and some may even stop attending Mass. Now, obviously that is a bad attitude, but I really want to know how we can educate people 'gently' - is it possible, or am I destined to a lifetime of people throwing hissy fits at me?
[/quote]
I think some people will throw hissy fits regardless, because people just want things their own way and will make anything they are told personal. But I do think that sometimes people go about the education poorly and just sort of steamroll them with the "facts" instead of actually educating and explaining in a way they can understand, all in the name of "truth". I definitely think there needs to be a pastoral aspect to it. That being said, there isn't any excuse why there shouldn't be changes made. And I think it would work out a lot better if everywhere was consistent about it. Then people couldn't just pout and say, "Well, fine, I'll go over to this other parish where they accept people like me!"

[LaPetiteSoeur]

Secular--absolutely not. Same goes for liturgical dancing. It's tacky.

Other Christian denominational music: within reason. Many of the hymns in the Catholic [i]Gather[/i] book are indeed Protestant in origen. Any written by Charles Wesley (brother of John Wesley, founder of Methodism) or that say orinially in the [i]Lutheran Book of Common Worship[/i] are Protestant. My organist is Moravian, and we regularly sing Moravian hymns. As long as the text is acceptable in the Church Doctrine, it's fine.

Catholic: Nothing, absolutely nothing, beats the good, old Catholic hymns. Give me them anyday! Latin and Chant are a.wesome. Some of the new ones though, are a bit...questionable. I don't like "singing as though I am God", ie, "I will come to you in the silence."