dells_of_bittersweet Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1308975659' post='2258426'] Is it theologically correct, singable, and appropriate to the occasion? [/quote] It's theologically correct and singable. How do you define appropriate for the occasion?
Nihil Obstat Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1308976915' post='2258445'] It's theologically correct and singable. How do you define appropriate for the occasion? [/quote] Pope St. Pius X gave a great definition of that. [size="2"][font="Century Gothic"]I General principles 1. Sacred music, being a complementary part of the solemn liturgy, participates in the general scope of the liturgy, which is the glory of God and the sanctification and edification of the faithful. It contributes to the decorum and the splendor of the ecclesiastical ceremonies, and since its principal office is to clothe with suitable melody the liturgical text proposed for the understanding of the faithful, its proper aim is to add greater efficacy to the text, in order that through it the faithful may be the more easily moved to devotion and better disposed for the reception of the fruits of grace belonging to the celebration of the most holy mysteries. 2. Sacred music should consequently possess, in the highest degree, the qualities proper to the liturgy, and in particular sanctity and goodness of form, which will spontaneously produce the final quality of universality. It must be holy, and must, therefore, exclude all profanity not only in itself, but in the manner in which it is presented by those who execute it. It must be true art, for otherwise it will be impossible for it to exercise on the minds of those who listen to it that efficacy which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her liturgy the art of musical sounds. But it must, at the same time, be universal in the sense that while every nation is permitted to admit into its ecclesiastical compositions those special forms which may be said to constitute its native music, still these forms must be subordinated in such a manner to the general characteristics of sacred music that nobody of any nation may receive an impression other than good on hearing them. [/font][/size] He makes some spectacular conclusions. [size="2"][font="Century Gothic"]II. The different kinds of sacred music 3. These qualities are to be found, in the highest degree, in Gregorian Chant, which is, consequently the Chant proper to the Roman Church, the only chant she has inherited from the ancient fathers, which she has jealously guarded for centuries in her liturgical codices, which she directly proposes to the faithful as her own, which she prescribes exclusively for some parts of the liturgy, and which the most recent studies have so happily restored to their integrity and purity. On these grounds [b]Gregorian Chant has always been regarded as the suprememodel for sacred music[/b], so that it is fully legitimate to lay down thefollowing rule: [size="4"][b]the more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savor the Gregorian form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple.[/b][/size] [/font][/size] I really cannot recommend enough [url="http://www.adoremus.org/TraLeSollecitudini.html#anchor40134803"]Tra le Sollecitudini[/url]. It is short a sweet; genius, really. There's a reason he's canonized.
ThePenciledOne Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Lord deserves to be Praised as freely as possible. Thank goodness there are Catholics that are inclined to Praise and Worship and can Love the Lord in this way. Gotta love some Hillsong United.
BG45 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Did you get their song Hoseanna when it was KLOVE's free download the other week?
Jaime Posted June 25, 2011 Author Posted June 25, 2011 READ PEOPLE [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308927430' post='2258086'] So there have been tons of threads about music and its appropriateness at mass. Should guitars be allowed? Is Praise and Worship music appropriate? Did the the monks get it right with Gregorian chant and quit screwing around? I've offered opinions on all these questions. As far as Praise and Worship music, there's a lot that I like and there's some that I don't care for. But here's my theory. As opposed to secular music, I'm pretty sure that the while writers and performers of P&W are doing so for their audiences, they are also very sincere that they are doing so to please God. Obviously no one can know the mind of God but that's never really stopped us from guessing. (Some of us have gone further than just guessing) So what do you think? Is God pleased by all praise? Does he think of it like a parent does of a child's drawing? (He's proud but he knows its garbage) please give some explanation to your opinion. Also I will be annoyed by anyone who answers with "no one knows the mind of God" [/quote] This thread has NOTHING to do with Mass. Its just about P&W music as it stands alone. Enough about Mass!
BG45 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Ah okay Cmom! And Jamie, it was a funeral and XLT? Neither necessarily a Mass even if both are in a church?
carmenchristi Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 No one can know the mind of God... haha... Well.... if we leave liturgy out of the picture, sure, I think God is pleased by praise and worship music when it is truly praise and worship. As for P&W in the liturgy, I think there has already been enough said! Anyway, if we consider it our whole existence is before God like the "child's picture". Before Beauty itself even the greatest works of art are scribbles. That does NOT mean that all things are equal, but at least for me it helps put the question in the right context.
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1308974593' post='2258407'] I play in a Praise and Worship music band, and we mostly perform for youth group and will be doing an XLT in the near future. I personally love the music, but I have a question for the Lord and Master of Orthodoxy (or anyone else who feels qualified to answer): Are you allowed to do praise and worship music for a bunch of teenagers in a church? [/quote] No. Why is Mass any different for a bunch of teenagers, as opposed to the congregation at large?
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1308975170' post='2258416'] The Holy Spirit reads hearts; Music is an expression of the heart; Praise & worship music is an expression of praise and worship; God is worthy to be praised; God likes us to sing to Him. (Puh-LEASE do not interpret this series of phrases as a chain of logic!) This is not to say that every praise & worship song is appropriate in every part of every Mass, but it does not preclude the possibility, either. If related to the readings and the feast of the day, if properly performed, if, if, if, if... then there's no reason to preclude their use in Mass. But then, the original post didn't ask about praise & worship music in Mass. Yes, God probably does accept our music the way parents accept children's artwork - but my singing is much better than my drawing. [/quote] Hymnody of any kind is not appropriate for use during Mass.
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1308975581' post='2258422'] Sang a funeral today for Aunty Olive: EH:On Eagle's Wngs RESP: Shelter Me O God OFF: Hear I am Lord COM: Blest are They MED: Imagine RECS: Holy God We Praise THey Name. If its theologically correct, singable and appropriate to the occasion, then its fine at Mass. Not all P & W is acceptable because it doesn't meet the above criteria for Catholic music. You can post all you want about hymns not being ideal according to whatever document you post, but you go into Catholic Church and you will find people singing hymns, whethers its a cathedral, a chapel, or even in Rome. Even before Vatican II people were not chanting they were singing hymns at Sunday Mass. Chanting is beautiful, but not the only way to praise God. [/quote] If we do what we want and what we want is not what the Church wants, are we being faithful to the Church? Are we serving God or are we serving man at that point? Since when is the Mass about us? Since when is the Mass about making sure that we are happy? Since when is the Mass about a communal experience which simply caters the wants of the congregation? These ideas are not Catholic. These ideas undermine the importance and the purpose of the Mass. Even before Vatican Council II there were abuses. The world isn't perfect, but also I'd be willing to bet that in 99% of parishes they weren't singing High Masses either. Most Masses were low Masses and there were provisions for singing hymns as long as they fit a certain criteria. But then again, this movement was spear headed by Bugnini, pushed through the Congregation for Rites and eventually signed off on by an ailing Pope (mere months before his death). The liturgical movements which misinterpreted Vatican Council II were afoot already. As it is, even then the criteria for use of hymns was specific and it was defined.... You're right, chanting is beautiful and chanting isn't the only way to praise God, but it is the only way to praise God at Holy Mass. And since when has a song by John Lennon EVER been considered Theologically correct? Imagine there's no heaven, wonder you can No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today... Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one Imagine no possessions It`s easy if you try No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one That is so riddled with Theological error, I don't even know where to start.... Edited June 25, 2011 by Cam42
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1308979223' post='2258468'] Lord deserves to be Praised as freely as possible. Thank goodness there are Catholics that are inclined to Praise and Worship and can Love the Lord in this way. Gotta love some Hillsong United. [/quote] You're right. But the Mass is not a free action. It is a very caculated and a very specific action. It is not open to free interpretation and innovation. That is what caused the hermeneutic of rupture...
Vincent Vega Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308999471' post='2258538'] That is so riddled with Theological error, I don't even know where to start.... [/quote] You [i]might[/i] could start with the fact that it's not the correct "Imagine".
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 derp. what is an XLT (other than an F-150 pick em up truck)? Chant is best. Organs are great. Hard to use either outside of an actual church building though. Gather 1200 youth for DCYC and do a quick survey how many know chant. See how many packed a pipe organ in their luggage. Since God inspired Sacred Scripture, look for the answer there you bunch of phatgoofs...he already told us the answer: Ecclesiastes 3:1 - For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven you may end the discussion now....
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1309000502' post='2258542'] You [i]might[/i] could start with the fact that it's not the correct "Imagine". [/quote] Gee, she didn't clarify now did she...so when one thinks of Imagine, it is NOT big stretch to assume that it is Lennon's song, now is it....plus with the tambor of music in today's churches, would it surprise you?
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1309004026' post='2258550'] derp. what is an XLT (other than an F-150 pick em up truck)? Chant is best. Organs are great. Hard to use either outside of an actual church building though. Gather 1200 youth for DCYC and do a quick survey how many know chant. See how many packed a pipe organ in their luggage. Since God inspired Sacred Scripture, look for the answer there you bunch of phatgoofs...he already told us the answer: Ecclesiastes 3:1 - For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven you may end the discussion now.... [/quote] Since when is it absolutely necessary that the faithful sing? As for the 1200 not knowing chant, they should. If they don't, that falls on church leaders and it should be fixed, no? That is part of the "spirit of Vatican II" though....to ignore what the Council called for and to make it all about mammon. We are to know how to chant. We are to know how to respond in Latin....if we don't, that doesn't mean that the liturgy has to change to accommodate the masses, but the masses have to accommodate the liturgy. So, when the music directors have 1200 youth at an event, it would be a wonderful time to TEACH them chant. Chanting is so much easier than trying to learn some pop inspired ditty by Ken Canedo or Bob Hurd or David Haas...but that isn't fun...and the Mass is supposed to be fun, right? Because fun is the only way to engage the youth....whatever... And while an organ is great and all, it isn't necessary...if you get 1200+ people chanting there is absolutely no need for anything other than the human voice. So, you're right, Ecclesiastes 3:1 applies...there is a season and a time under heaven and the time is now to teach chant...because that is how we are called to give praise and worship to God in the Mass. Thanks for the Scripture, it was very apropos. Edited June 25, 2011 by Cam42
Vincent Vega Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309005236' post='2258554'] Gee, she didn't clarify now did she...so when one thinks of Imagine, it is NOT big stretch to assume that it is Lennon's song, now is it....plus with the tambor of music in today's churches, would it surprise you? [/quote] Considering that it is a song written by an atheistic communist on atheistic and communist ideals, yes, it would surprise me that it would be sung in a Catholic church. I'm cynical, but not that cynical. Also, I find it insulting to Cmom that you think she would say "Oh, you want me to sing a song about there not being a heaven at a Catholic funeral? Hm...well okay, sure, since you've twisted my arm." [size="1"](Also, if you had bothered to read subsequent posts, you would have seen the clarification.)[/size]
homeschoolmom Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 If only you'd just read the follow up comments.... [quote name='BG45' timestamp='1308975941' post='2258434'] From my own admittedly deficient knowledge of liturgical norms and canon law, I'd say what Cmom said. I know at more than a few Festivals of Praise, they've been inside a church and the music tended to meet those three items. [b]Also just as an aside on the "Imagine" song being in the funeral, I think that's an amazing P&W song. I play it on iTunes usually before going to Adoration.[/b][/quote] [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1308976222' post='2258437'] [b]I had never heard that song by Mercy Me before since I don't ever listen to P & W[/b], but the family requested it yesterday at the funeral home so the organist learned it this morning before the funeral. [/quote]
IcePrincessKRS Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308987998' post='2258519'] READ PEOPLE This thread has NOTHING to do with Mass. Its just about P&W music as it stands alone. [b] Enough about Mass![/b] [/quote] Well that's a first. But, seriously, paying attention to the actual topic might help avoid some of these disagreements. They are irrelevant to the OP question.
Cam42 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1309005920' post='2258556'] Considering that it is a song written by an atheistic communist on atheistic and communist ideals, yes, it would surprise me that it would be sung in a Catholic church. I'm cynical, but not that cynical. Also, I find it insulting to Cmom that you think she would say "Oh, you want me to sing a song about there not being a heaven at a Catholic funeral? Hm...well okay, sure, since you've twisted my arm." [size="1"](Also, if you had bothered to read subsequent posts, you would have seen the clarification.)[/size] [/quote] Ok, I apologize for the Lennon comment. I was scanning the topic at 6am. That is my fault, I'm not perfect. The Song's name is I Can Only Imagine. It is not Imagine. So, perhaps you can understand the confusion on my part. Regardless, that is not appropriate for the Mass, even for a meditation....funerals are not a mouthpiece for pop music to make a grieving family feel better. There is a time and place for that, like say at a visitation or a wake... It is precisely this confusion and horizontal theology which led us to this state of rupture that the Church faces now. Because her leadership did not do her service. Because her leadership doesn't speak out and support what should be. Dies Irae that is what is appropriate for a funeral...but alas that was removed in 1969....so that we can get songs like I Can Only Imagine... Proper theology. What is more proper, the Dies Irae or I Can Only Imagine? It is clear, but because the family requested it we have to sing it....otherwise what? The funeral Mass is not about the grieving family, it is about the sacrifice of the Mass and the commendation of the dead into paradise. We find comfort in that, not in the incomplete and often times incorrect horizontal theology which has infested and invaded the minds of the leadership of the Church. I'm not demonizing Cmom. She just did what she was told. I suppose she could have said no, but ultimately the culpability of that falls on the priest who allowed it to happen at a Mass he was celebrating... So, I apologize for getting the song wrong. That was my fault.
Vincent Vega Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309009199' post='2258563'] So, I apologize for getting the song wrong. That was my fault. [/quote] It happens, no worries. I wasn't trying to argue that it was appropriate at mass (I am not a fan of P&W personally, but that completely aside, I think we've established that it is completely inappropriate at mass...in fact I'm kind of reevaluating my stance now on having hymns in mass at all, but that's another story), just that it wasn't as bad as it could have been (the "Imagine" song).
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