Catholic Monarchy....

[Cam42]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1309031414' post='2258683']
Yes, I know. It would be more in line with absolutist monarchy, but without any one Nation, whch would make it different.

As for political sway, I also think it's precisely because of the fact that it's more of an "influential" government rather than a State in places that are not the Vatican, then it isn't as suceptible to being overthrown. Some people become Christians out of their free choice and so choose to follow whatever the Pope says. In order for the Vatican to die out, there would have to be no more Catholics.

As an atheist I know very well what it means to be outside of the group giving the Vatican political significance.
[/quote]


No, there is a nation. Vatican City. It is just the smallest nation. There are citizens. I know some. There are passports, I have seen some.

As for government, I've been there, it is very real. It's not too often that you're greeted at the entrance of a country with guards armed with halbreds.

As for the political sway, it cannot be supported, because your premise is flawed.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309034843' post='2258715']
No, there is a nation. Vatican City. It is just the smallest nation. There are citizens. I know some. There are passports, I have seen some.[/quote]

I know, that's not what i'm talking about.

[quote]As for government, I've been there, it is very real. It's not too often that you're greeted at the entrance of a country with guards armed with halbreds.[/quote]

Haven't been there, but have heard of the Swiss guards.

***

[quote]As for the political sway, it cannot be supported, because your premise is flawed.[/quote]

It's influence extends beyond its borders and is not limited to its borders, which is why it really isn't comparable to other monarchies that have been overthrown. Though it isn't merely symbolic either, such is the case with constitutional monarchies which have survived ( I should've said symbolic rather than constitutional monarchy) *. The political sway it has acts in other countries through the voluntary choice of Christians, which would make it a bit different from the cultural influence a country such as the USA has on other countries.

* It's more of a cultural/religious authority rather than a executive/legislative/judiciary authority in countries and States other than Vatican, though because of Christians the two blend together. Culture and religion are on different grounds than an ordinary executive/legislative/judiciary State. It's not the Pope and Vatican monarchy that has political sway in the sense that he himself can extend his hand and meddle in another country's legislature in countries with a lot of Christians, it's the Christians. It's symbolic in that sense, and so more protected from being overthrown, as long as there are Catholics.

[Mr.Cat]

Vatican City is a theocratic monarchy, with its monarch elected, so argumentatively a republican theocratic monarchy. But not democratic since those representatives that elect the monarch are not elected by the governed.

Depending on the definition of "[i]nation[/i]" or "[i]country[/i]", it's a bit hard to call vatican city either. It might be more appropriate to call it a city-state... It's an irregular example in international diplomacy and politics.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1309042364' post='2258744']
Vatican City is a theocratic monarchy, with its monarch elected, so argumentatively a republican theocratic monarchy. [/quote]

No, it is an absolute elected Monarchy. The Pope is ruler absolute. While it is a city state, it is a nation unto itself as are all city states...

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309049002' post='2258777']No, it is an absolute elected Monarchy. The Pope is ruler absolute. While it is a city state, it is a nation unto itself as are all city states...[/quote]But the pope is selected through by a body of electors (eligible cardinals), making it republican. The process of selection and rule is theocratic (Catholicism). The Pope, historically and currently, lets the Secretary of State handle the governing of Vatican City... he is a monarch and very unlimited in his role as monarch of Vatican City.

Thus I would personally classify it as a republican theocratic monarchy...

Vatican City isn't a nationality, everyone who lives or works in the Vatican hail from other nationalities. Vatican City has no common population, people who are born and live there, like other countries would have. Under some definitions it works and under others it doesn't. It's why I wrote its "[i]a bit hard[/i]", because its an irregular situation. This is why I wrote "[i]might be more appropriate[/i]" to call it a city-state, which is how they identify themselves both internally and internationally.

Edited June 26, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Winchester]

Catholic Monarchy? I'm fine with it.

The form of government is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

[mortify]

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had an *elected* monarch, and they kicked some serious @ss.


The hardest thing about monarchy is making the monarch accountable. Since he is the highest civil authority, what do you do if he is unjust? There has to be a way to counter his power and make him accountable to something greater than himself. I think that's why the separation of judicial, legislative, and executive powers in our contemporary democracy works. No one possess full power, and there is accountability (theoretically at least.)


Anyway... you want real heavenly governance? Look to the small Christian villages of the past.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309006082' post='2258559']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI[/media]

I wonder how that's working for her?

Here's how gas prices have looked in the last 3 years...
[url="http://www.GasBuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx?city1=USA%20Average&city2=USA%20Average&city3=&crude=n&tme=36&units=us"]Gas prices 2008-2011[/url]
[/quote]
Sweet vid.

[dUSt]

I don't think Justin Bieber haircuts work for anyone over the age of 19.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309229086' post='2259340']
I don't think Justin Bieber haircuts work for anyone over the age of 19.
[/quote]

I don't think that Justin Bieber haicuts work for anyone at or under the age of 19 either...

Down with the Bieber!!!! Down with the Bieber!!!!!

[dUSt]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309275728' post='2259686']
I don't think that Justin Bieber haicuts work for anyone at or under the age of 19 either...

Down with the Bieber!!!! Down with the Bieber!!!!!
[/quote]
You should watch Justin Bieber's movie. You will become a belieber, just like me. Bieber fever!

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309278813' post='2259708']
You should watch Justin Bieber's movie. You will become a belieber, just like me. Bieber fever!
[/quote]

Down with the Bieber....Down with the Bieber

[Socrates]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1308980649' post='2258476']
The guy just seems maniacal. Yes, to paraphrase Churchill, democracy is the very worst of political systems. Except for all the other ones. That doesn't mean the answer is living under a dictator. Or restricting the right to vote to the "virtuous" Catholics. I wonder who gets to determine who is a good enough Catholic to vote. From his videos it appears Mr. Voris would think he's qualified.

There will always be people trying to game the system but for the majority of people it is not that way. I work with people on Medicaid all the time. The Church considers healthcare, housing, food, etc to be basic human rights. It appears Voris does not agree with this very clear teaching. I hesitate to use the H word but I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, he would be eager to use it about others. There is no in-depth theology behind his stance, it's all ideology. Would that our theologians received their primary formation as Christians and not as freemarketers or Marxists.
[/quote]
Government should not be forcing others to pay for those who refuse to work or try to find work. The welfare state has been a disaster, and has not helped end poverty, but helped create and perpetuate a permanent underclass.

And the problem is not just welfare for those that won't work, but our system of corporate welfare, and bail-outs for crooked fat-cats enabled by government, whose businesses would have failed in the free-market system so loathed by the bleeding hearts on here. And a major factor in the economic collapse was government-created housing programs which forced banks to lend to those who could not afford to pay back. Not to mention the root problem of the disastrous unnatural meddling in finances by government-sponsored Federal Reserve.

Welfare-state socialism has proved disastrous for our country, and the worst effects are yet to come - 14 trillion dollars in national debt and counting. Putting our children in debt that can never be paid off is not helping the welfare of our society, but the opposite. Yet I suppose we just need to keep spending and more spending, even though we're bankrupt. Keep sinking deeper into debt.

Those who think that supporting a big-spending welfare state is some kind infallible dogma of the Faith need to read the section of John Paul II's [i]Centesimus Annus[/i]:
[quote]In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called "Welfare State". This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the "Social Assistance State". Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.100

By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.[/quote]



As for the false idol of "Democracy," or mob rule, it's worthless. Heck, Hitler was democratically elected Chancelor.
Democracy can only work with a voting populace that's moral, virtuous, and informed, and today, I'd say it's none of those

[i]John Adams: Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.

James Madison: Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their death.

John Quincy Adams: The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.

Thomas Jefferson: The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

James Madison: Democracy was the right of the people to choose their own tyrant.[/i]


Secularism (lack of religion) is likewise no guarantee of good government. As I've pointed out elsewhere, Communist states are secularist and anti-religious.


And, no, I have not watched the Michael Vortis video, as I really don't care what he says that much one way or another. We should be much more concerned about the democratically-elected idiots in power who are putting us in $14 trillion of debt, and destroying our country's future.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Socrates

[4588686]

What a whiny little beesh.





Honestly, what a whiny, self-absorbed little beesh.




Hard to believe his show is stuck on youtube.

[katholikkid]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1308952899' post='2258285']
So much hate speech coming from someone speaking out against hate speech?

Not to mention he just looks like another ill informed Catholic ranting and whining because others will not submit to the doctrine of their group.

Secularism is a step foward. I don't trust one figure (the Pope) to know what's best for humanity.
[/quote]

I agree with the first half of your statement completely. I do not find Michael V. charitable or his correction fraternal. Secularism is not a step forward but it is important to know that ultramontanism is not the antithesis to and Catholics should not try to replace secularism with it. I too do not trust the pope to know what is best for humanity but I do trust the Holy Ghost. Charity, Hope, and Faith are the antithesis to secularism.

Edited June 28, 2011 by katholikkid

[Socrates]

[quote name='katholikkid' timestamp='1309287094' post='2259792']
Secularism is not a step forward but it is important to know that ultramontanism is not the antithesis to and Catholics should not try to replace secularism with it. I too do not trust the pope to know what is best for humanity but I do trust the Holy Ghost.
[/quote]
So, do you think the Holy Ghost speaks to you better than to the Pope?

[Guest DanielSvenOConnor]

I was just doing some quick online research about Catholic governance and came upon this thread.

I was so shocked at some of the vitriol that I felt I had to register just to write this response.

Why are you spewing such venom at a brother in Christ? Perhaps Michael Voris is too radical, too harsh in his tone, or too _____. Who knows. Leave it to God, unless you want venom spewed at you for your imperfections. None of what he did is objective evil, and none of it is clear heresy. Yet you are so quick to condemn. Pray for the control of your tongues!


And no, I highly doubt he ever called welfare recipients "cancers." Please show me the actual quote where he allegedly said this. I anticipate this will produce guilt in your heart (if you have a conscience) as you recognize you have slandered a Brother in Christ.

[Era Might]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309278813' post='2259708']You will become a belieber
[/quote]
Priceless.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309229086' post='2259340']
I don't think Justin Bieber haircuts work for anyone over the age of 19.
[/quote]

[4588686]

[quote name='DanielSvenOConnor' timestamp='1310044461' post='2263971']
I was just doing some quick online research about Catholic governance and came upon this thread.

I was so shocked at some of the vitriol that I felt I had to register just to write this response.

Why are you spewing such venom at a brother in Christ? Perhaps Michael Voris is too radical, too harsh in his tone, or too _____. Who knows. Leave it to God, unless you want venom spewed at you for your imperfections. None of what he did is objective evil, and none of it is clear heresy. Yet you are so quick to condemn. Pray for the control of your tongues!


And no, I highly doubt he ever called welfare recipients "cancers." Please show me the actual quote where he allegedly said this. I anticipate this will produce guilt in your heart (if you have a conscience) as you recognize you have slandered a Brother in Christ.
[/quote]

I can show you the quote where he acted like a whiney little beesh. Would that help?