What's The Preferred Title For A Non-Catholic To Use When Addressi

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I would not recommend calling the priest "Dude"unless--

--It turns out that you and the priest have known each other all your lives, but lost touch;
--You are both under 30; and
--There is no one else nearby.

If anyone else is listening, they might not understand that you have known the priest since he accidentally threw up in kindergarten.

Personally, I have no problem calling a Catholic priest "Father." To me, it is simply a title of respect and has nothing to do with paternity (particularly if the priest is younger than me). If that is uncomfortable, I'd try to call the priest by no title at all--simply say, "Pleased to meet you." Otherwise, Reverend.

In the same way, the Sisters across the street call their (late) founder "Mother Pauline" and I tend to do so as well, when talking to them. When writing about her however, I tend to use her formal title, just to make clearer to readers who I'm writing about. To me, the use of the title "Mother" is similar to the fact that the founder of the Missionaries of Charity is almost universally called "Mother Teresa"--even by non-Catholics.

[cooterhein]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1309563840' post='2261800']
It's really no different from calling a Jew "Rabbi" or a Muslim "Imam."[/quote]It really is different from those. If I was just calling him a priest, [b]that[/b] would be no different. He's a rabbi, he's a priest, he's an imam. What am I? I'm a guy looking at them, calling them what they are. I could be anybody.

But if I'm a guy calling someone "Father," I can't just be anybody. Calling him "Father" doesn't just say something about who he is, it says something about who he is [b]to me.[/b]
[b]
[/b]
Regardless of who I am, he's a priest. Regardless of who I am, his name is whatever his name is. Regardless of who I am, Reverend is another thing I can call him. But I can only call him "Father" if he is a father to me in some sense, and there is no sense in which he is a father to me. I'm sure he is to you, but not to me.

It's not really a matter of discomfort. I could call anyone "Father Whatever" really easily. It wouldn't leave a bad taste in my mouth, it wouldn't make me feel weird, it wouldn't make me uncomfortable. The issue is one of truthfulness. I don't want to say something if it's not true. He's a priest, he's a reverend, these things are true. One of his titles is Father, this is also true.

But for me to call a priest "Father," that's not true. He's not my father. In any sense. I prefer an alternative that's more truthsome.



Unless you believe all Catholic priests actually are fathers [b]to me[/b] in some sense, you should be able to see where I'm coming from. Anyone who isn't able to see eye to eye with me on that, like if you happen to believe a Catholic priest is in fact my father in some sense, feel free to run that past. But if I'm not believing a man actually is a father [b]to me[/b] in some way, I'm not able to call him Father and feel entirely truthful about it.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='cooterhein' timestamp='1309571307' post='2261876']
It really is different from those. If I was just calling him a priest, [b]that[/b] would be no different. He's a rabbi, he's a priest, he's an imam. What am I? I'm a guy looking at them, calling them what they are. I could be anybody.

But if I'm a guy calling someone "Father," I can't just be anybody. Calling him "Father" doesn't just say something about who he is, it says something about who he is [b]to me.[/b]
[b]
[/b]
Regardless of who I am, he's a priest. Regardless of who I am, his name is whatever his name is. Regardless of who I am, Reverend is another thing I can call him. But I can only call him "Father" if he is a father to me in some sense, and there is no sense in which he is a father to me. I'm sure he is to you, but not to me.

It's not really a matter of discomfort. I could call anyone "Father Whatever" really easily. It wouldn't leave a bad taste in my mouth, it wouldn't make me feel weird, it wouldn't make me uncomfortable. The issue is one of truthfulness. I don't want to say something if it's not true. He's a priest, he's a reverend, these things are true. One of his titles is Father, this is also true.

But for me to call a priest "Father," that's not true. He's not my father. In any sense. I prefer an alternative that's more truthsome.



Unless you believe all Catholic priests actually are fathers [b]to me[/b] in some sense, you should be able to see where I'm coming from. Anyone who isn't able to see eye to eye with me on that, like if you happen to believe a Catholic priest is in fact my father in some sense, feel free to run that past. But if I'm not believing a man actually is a father [b]to me[/b] in some way, I'm not able to call him Father and feel entirely truthful about it.
[/quote]

I disagree with your logic. You are trying to make a connection that doesn't exist by saying the very title forces the person to be 'your' father. It's still just a title, not an indication of a personal connection. Just because he is a spiritual father to some doesn't make him your spiritual father any more than me calling a Mormon "Elder Joe" when I am talking to them makes them my elder. Or calling Rabbi Samuel makes him "My Master". I am simply respecting who they are. The title Father is no different than Reverend, Doctor, Rabbi (meaning "My Master"), Pope, Holy Father, Queen, Your Excellency, or any other title. It's a title. It's a sign of respect for the office holder. Unless you really vilify the person it shouldn't be a problem.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1309572022' post='2261888']
I disagree with your logic. You are trying to make a connection that doesn't exist by saying the very title forces the person to be 'your' father. It's still just a title, not an indication of a personal connection. Just because he is a spiritual father to some doesn't make him your spiritual father any more than me calling a Mormon "Elder Joe" when I am talking to them makes them my elder. Or calling Rabbi Samuel makes him "My Master". I am simply respecting who they are. The title Father is no different than Reverend, Doctor, Rabbi (meaning "My Master"), Pope, Holy Father, Queen, Your Excellency, or any other title. It's a title. It's a sign of respect for the office holder. Unless you really vilify the person it shouldn't be a problem.
[/quote]

What Brother Adam said.

There's a difference of meaning between calling just anyone "father" and a priest "Father." Although it's the same word, calling a priest "Father" doesn't mean that he's your biological or even spiritual father in any sense. It's just a term of respect that evokes the idea that he is a spiritual father to some people. It means that you respect his position in a religion, and in turn respect the religion itself.

[dUSt]

What they said. Just like the point I made about calling someone doctor. You'd have no problem calling Dr Phil, Dr Phil, would you? Even though he's not [b]your[/b] doctor. Similarly, you should not have reservations calling a priest Father--it's their title. What about Dr Dre? Would you just call him Dre? Do you drink Pepper?

[CatherineM]

I had to call a former boss of mine, "Reverend Doctor," eventhough his Doctorate was honorary, and he had no earned theology degree. He was a non-denominational minister that was "called" to the ministry one day. We call people by the titles they have earned, even if we don't agree with the way they have "earned" them. A priest goes to school as long as a physician does to earn his title.

[vee]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309575893' post='2261938']
We call people by the titles they have earned, even if we don't agree with the way they have "earned" them. A priest goes to school as long as a physician does to earn his title.
[/quote]

This.

[cooterhein]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1309572022' post='2261888']
I disagree with your logic.[/quote]I doubt you're even trying to look at what my logic is.

[quote]You are trying to make a connection that doesn't exist by saying the very title forces the person to be 'your' father.[/quote]Case in point.




You think there's any sense in which a Catholic priest is some kind of father to me, or do you concede that he's not and go on to say it doesn't matter? You want to be relevant, do that.

[Luigi]

[quote name='cooterhein' timestamp='1309571307' post='2261876']
It really is different from those. If I was just calling him a priest, [b]that[/b] would be no different. He's a rabbi, he's a priest, he's an imam. What am I? I'm a guy looking at them, calling them what they are. I could be anybody.

But if I'm a guy calling someone "Father," I can't just be anybody. Calling him "Father" doesn't just say something about who he is, it says something about who he is [b]to me.[/b]
[b]
[/b]
Regardless of who I am, he's a priest. Regardless of who I am, his name is whatever his name is. Regardless of who I am, Reverend is another thing I can call him. But I can only call him "Father" if he is a father to me in some sense, and there is no sense in which he is a father to me. I'm sure he is to you, but not to me.

It's not really a matter of discomfort. I could call anyone "Father Whatever" really easily. It wouldn't leave a bad taste in my mouth, it wouldn't make me feel weird, it wouldn't make me uncomfortable. The issue is one of truthfulness. I don't want to say something if it's not true. He's a priest, he's a reverend, these things are true. One of his titles is Father, this is also true.

But for me to call a priest "Father," that's not true. He's not my father. In any sense. I prefer an alternative that's more truthsome.



Unless you believe all Catholic priests actually are fathers [b]to me[/b] in some sense, you should be able to see where I'm coming from. Anyone who isn't able to see eye to eye with me on that, like if you happen to believe a Catholic priest is in fact my father in some sense, feel free to run that past. But if I'm not believing a man actually is a father [b]to me[/b] in some way, I'm not able to call him Father and feel entirely truthful about it.
[/quote]

I do see where you're coming from, and I can accept it. I personally feel like you're making too big a deal out of it, but it's your call to make. On the other hand, if truthsome-ness is your criteria, you can't call him Reverend unless you revere him.

[Innocent]

Welcome to Phatmass, cooterhein!



[quote name='cooterhein' timestamp='1309571307' post='2261876']
Unless you believe all Catholic priests actually are fathers [b]to me[/b] in some sense, you should be able to see where I'm coming from. Anyone who isn't able to see eye to eye with me on that, like if you happen to believe a Catholic priest is in fact my father in some sense, feel free to run that past. But if I'm not believing a man actually is a father [b]to me[/b] in some way, I'm not able to call him Father and feel entirely truthful about it.
[/quote]

I suppose it would be possible to theorise that for certain reasons, (such as the fact that, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, every validly baptised Christian [under which umbrella term I assume you would fall, given that you have labelled yourself as a follower of Mere Christianity. ] is "in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."[sup]1[/sup]) any Catholic priest (it is commonly understood among Catholics that a priest by his vocation is called to image the Fatherhood of God[sup]2[/sup]) would, in some way see himself as a spiritual Father to any validly baptised Christian who is not a Catholic (such as I suppose you to be) just as he is one to any Catholic (although, of course, he would be able to exercise the intimate spiritual relationship of being a Spiritual Father or Spiritual Director only with a very small proportion of Catholics with whom he interacts.).

However, though the above arguement might illustrate how a Catholic priest might consider himself a "Father" to you, I'm not sure that this would convince you of why [b]you[/b] should consider him as being in some way a Father to you.

All the same, it is my understanding that, historically, there have been periods when non-Catholic clergy of Protestant communities have also been addressed as "Father" by Protestant Christians[sup]3[/sup]. Keeping that in mind, it [i]might[/i] be possible for a conscientious person such as you to address a Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican priest as "Father" without in sincerity, violating your conscience. You could perhaps consider that addressing him as "Father" would indicate your recognition that he plays the role of a spiritual father to Catholics.

At any rate, I have seen friends and classmates of mine who were Protestants, or who belonged to other religions like Hinduism, Islam, etc., or who were even atheists, who addressed Catholic priests as "Father" when they spoke to them, and I'm quite certain that no one who saw this formed the impression that those people considered that Catholic priest whom they were addressing to be, in some genuine way, a "Father" to them.

__________________________________________________________
[size="1"]1.From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#838"]CCC 838.[/url]
[quote]838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324[/quote]

2. [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FATHERGD.TXT"]The Fatherhood of God[/url] by Mark J. Kelly [quote]The bishop or priest "images" the Fatherhood of God. They establish us in the new covenant by baptism; they feed us the Word of God and the sacrament of Holy Communion, and by doing this they maintain us in the Church. When St. Paul instructs Timothy and Titus in the requirements for these offices, he says that they should be good fathers (see 1 Tm 3:4-5; Ti 1:6).[/quote]

3. [i]vide[/i] this article: [url="http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1916"][i]Are ‘Mother’ and ‘Father’ Appropriate Titles for Protestant Clergy[/i]? by David L. Holmes[/url] which, if I am not wrong, is written by a professor from a non-Catholic college. However, the thesis of this article is that Protestants gave the title of "Father" to those members of the clergy (and important laymen too) whom they thought of as their spiritual fathers, on account of the spiritual ministry exercised by those people. I think this doesn't exactly cover your situation, but I can't be sure until I understand you better. [/size]

Edited July 2, 2011 by Innocent

[carmenchristi]

I'm sad to see that this topic has turned into a debate. Cooterhein, I'm edified by both the integrity and respect your question shows. You feel strongly about the use of a title, that's fine, but you don't want to offend or be rude in your disagreement, that's admirable.

I also think the debate about the use of the title is out of place here. But just for the record I'll add my 2 cents. The title "Father" is more than just a title, and for you, not using it is a gesture of respect towards those who believe that it is more than just a title.

C'mon guys, do you really believe that with ordination a priest earns a title as one would earn a doctorate??? I think all of us Catholics agree that "Father" represents what the Sacrament has made of an ordinary man. We are the ones making it banal while our non-Catholic brother (or umm... sister... I don't know which one applies!) recognizes that it is more than just a title.

I agree however, that any non-Catholic who doesn't have scruples about calling a priest "Father" without believing that it is more than just a title, doesn't do anything wrong. He sees it as a title and uses it that way.

This situation is resolved with incredible simplicity: Just call him Reverend.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='carmenchristi' timestamp='1309593209' post='2262029']
I'm sad to see that this topic has turned into a debate. Cooterhein, I'm edified by both the integrity and respect your question shows. You feel strongly about the use of a title, that's fine, but you don't want to offend or be rude in your disagreement, that's admirable.

I also think the debate about the use of the title is out of place here. But just for the record I'll add my 2 cents. The title "Father" is more than just a title, and for you, not using it is a gesture of respect towards those who believe that it is more than just a title.

C'mon guys, do you really believe that with ordination a priest earns a title as one would earn a doctorate??? I think all of us Catholics agree that "Father" represents what the Sacrament has made of an ordinary man. We are the ones making it banal while our non-Catholic brother (or umm... sister... I don't know which one applies!) recognizes that it is more than just a title.

I agree however, that any non-Catholic who doesn't have scruples about calling a priest "Father" without believing that it is more than just a title, doesn't do anything wrong. He sees it as a title and uses it that way.

This situation is resolved with incredible simplicity: Just call him Reverend.
[/quote]


Yes, this.

The OP has expressed his discomfort with the title Father and asked if there is a respectful alternative, so that he can feel more comfortable. It is not up to us to say whether he should be uncomfortable with Father or not - he is, thats just how it is!


Actually, when in contact with a Carmel that still uses Mother for its prioress (not all do) I felt very uncomfortable with it at first. When I visited I did use it to address her and it felt okay while there, but once I got home and contacted her to say that I did not think her community was where I was meant to be, I reverted to Sister.

[carmenchristi]

When I was a novice I just couldn't stomach calling the NM "Mother Mistress"... it sounded so "icky". She allowed us to call her Sister (name) for a while, but eventually we had to switch to "Mother Mistress"... I never could get used to it, so I avoided names at all cost. Anything short of "Hey you!" So I totally understand!

[Ed Normile]

Gee I really feel sorry for your friends who are getting married in the Church yet, as you say, hope too avoid being too serious or even attend any denomination as no one really cares. Makes me wonder why they even bother with the ceremony at all, sounds like a JP would be more fitting.

ed

[mortify]

When in Rome do as the Romans do. Show the man some respect, call him Father, and move on. Nothing difficult about it!

[Groo the Wanderer]

Dunno. My wife is Pentacostal/Assembly of God. They call anyone who has 'credentials' (equiv. to 2 yrs of jr college, I think) Pastor. So there is the Pastor, the pastor's wife who is also called Pastor xxxx, the youth minister who is called Pastor xxxx, and everyone else they call Brother xxxx or Sister xxxx.

I don;t use those titles when speaking to them. Feels weird calling anyone else Pastor because my pastor is my priest. So I avoid the title entirely. As for their laity, I do not use Brother or Sister either since I think those should be reserved for monks/friars and nuns.



I guess it works both ways. Do whatever you are comfortable with, as long as it isn;t disrespectful. I address my bishop as Your Excellency even when my pastor and the other priests call him Bishop Vann. It just seems more respectful somehow. Wonder if I should kiss his ring one day?

[aggiornamento]

this is the most inane topic. sounds like someone has some daddy issues...

[dUSt]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1309631826' post='2262169']
Wonder if I should kiss his ring one day?
[/quote]
I did. Then he bought 3 phatmass CDs.