Right Wing Terrorism

[Laudate_Dominum]

An acquaintance of mine just published a provocative blog post. [url="http://caelumetterra.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/dark-irony/"]Dark Irony[/url]

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1311509476' post='2274831']
An acquaintance of mine just published a provocative blog post. [url="http://caelumetterra.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/dark-irony/"]Dark Irony[/url]
[/quote]

[4588686]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1311459733' post='2274510']
"Leftism" and "liberal" aren't really synonymous. Nazis were leftists, but certainly not socially liberal. The terms have become a bit confused, anyway. It used to be liberals were concerned with personal liberties protected by a small government that didn't play favorites and was not profligate in spending and taxation.
[/quote]

Nazis were not leftists. Communists are leftists. Fascism is a right wing ideology.

[CatherineM]

To be honest, when I first heard about the bombing, I also assumed Muslim because of the cartoon issue. The day of the OKC bombing it was also assume originally that it had to be a Muslim extremist. Anyone who looked vaguely middle-eastern was pulled out of line at the airport and seriously searched. My Godparents' youngest son was pulled out of his car. My Godmother was Mexican, and my Godfather was Spanish, so their son had skin the color of a typical Mexican, but he could grow a pretty good beard. He looked middle-eastern, and some rednecks pulled him out of his car at a stop sign. He started screaming that he was just a "wet-back" and they finally let him go.

When they announced that the guy was Norwegian, my first thought was wondering if he had a mental illness, because if he did, my husband will get calls for comment by the local media. We don't think about people there being terrorists. On the other hand, European countries are going through demographic changes they probably haven't seen in a couple of thousand years. In North America we are used to immigration. If Europe isn't going to have enough children to replace their population, they are going to face having a bunch of foreigners descending on them. People don't like change. Between immigration, and financial troubles, we may see more of this in Europe in the future.

[4588686]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1311490033' post='2274786']
The problem is the desire to distance National Socialism from leftism has led people to describe fascism (which involves strong authoritarian power and centralized government) as right wing. It's delusional.

I would argue that nationalism, which puts an arbitrary collective above the individual is by its very nature leftist. I would argue that, perversely, a singular dedication to anarchy could lead one to establish a leftist government. In fact, at some point, radical individualism could lead to an authoritarian leftist regime. A sort of commitment to one's own liberty at the expense of others.
[/quote]



Extreme Libertarianism is not a right wing-ideology. You're trying to somehow suggest that Fascism is not right wing because it is obviously incompatible with libertarianism or anarch-capitalism.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1311560318' post='2275251']
Nazis were not leftists. Communists are leftists. Fascism is a right wing ideology.
[/quote]

see this. I think this helps explain what seems to be the confusion here. [url="http://www.politicalcompass.org/"]The Political Compass[/url]

[4588686]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1311560599' post='2275254']
see this. I think this helps explain what seems to be the confusion here. [url="http://www.politicalcompass.org/"]The Political Compass[/url]
[/quote]

Lately some on the right (that's not a reference to Winchester) have been trying to claim that the socialist part of national socialism means that they were really some sort of leftists. That's to confuse the European political spectrum with the American one.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1311560318' post='2275251']
Nazis were not leftists. Communists are leftists. Fascism is a right wing ideology.
[/quote]
I was thinking about this tonight and really, it would be better to avoid either left or right wing and discuss it in other terms that are more concrete. I was thinking authoritarian on one end and anarchism on the other, but I'm not sure that would work all that well. Especially when you told some Palinite they were firmly on the authoritarian side. And how would you deal with fascism's cooperation with private corporate entities (which clearly isn't approaching anarchy).

[kujo]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1311560394' post='2275252']
To be honest, when I first heard about the bombing, I also assumed Muslim because of the cartoon issue. The day of the OKC bombing it was also assume originally that it had to be a Muslim extremist. Anyone who looked vaguely middle-eastern was pulled out of line at the airport and seriously searched. My Godparents' youngest son was pulled out of his car. My Godmother was Mexican, and my Godfather was Spanish, so their son had skin the color of a typical Mexican, but he could grow a pretty good beard. He looked middle-eastern, and some rednecks pulled him out of his car at a stop sign. He started screaming that he was just a "wet-back" and they finally let him go.

When they announced that the guy was Norwegian, my first thought was wondering if he had a mental illness, because if he did, my husband will get calls for comment by the local media. We don't think about people there being terrorists. On the other hand, European countries are going through demographic changes they probably haven't seen in a couple of thousand years. In North America we are used to immigration. If Europe isn't going to have enough children to replace their population, they are going to face having a bunch of foreigners descending on them. People don't like change. Between immigration, and financial troubles, we may see more of this in Europe in the future.
[/quote]

Up until recently, when work and school have limited the amount of sun-tanning that I could engage in, I would always get pulled out of line at the airport for the "random checks." I have a pretty full beard, and, as I said, I used to be fairly dark-skinned (mama's Italian side gave me that olive skin). I never had a problem with it, with my attitude being that people who looked vaguely like me have been attacking civilians in airports, train stations and other public places. Are they the only people committing acts of violence? No, of course not. But they are the current (mis)conception of what a "terrorist" looks like, and so we all respond to it. Conversely, when I was about 8 (after the OKC bombing), and saw my dad's first passport, my reaction was "Dad, you look like a terrorist!" He had long shaggy red hair, and a very long shaggy beard. It all changes over time.

And you're right--the European immigration issue is absolutely at work here. But you've got to remember--their major immigrant group right now are Muslims from the Arab peninsula, coming in large numbers into the cities and towns throughout Europe. This phenomena has been occurring for decades, but has reached a critical mass in recent years. What you have to understand is that these Muslims are analogous to the Mexicans and other Latin American immigrants that we have in this country. And the ascending of xenophobic beliefs and fears by Europeans must be looked at in this context. Thus, Islamic terrorism is even scarier for them, because it is coming from a growing population [i]within[/i]. It'd be like if all of a sudden Latin American immigrants in this country decided to declare war on us.

[Hilde]

Right wing extremism, here, is a fringe extremist right wing thing and usually means something to do with nationalism. This attack, as far as I have heard, was done to halt recruitment to the labor party(obv left wing) who has also been the governing party for quite a while( and therefore to blame for the "multiculturalsim", that he so despises). He was a member of the most blue party, Fremskrittspartiet, akin to the republicans, but of course he is extreme in his views and actions and does not represent this party in any way.



When the word is used it usually gives connotations such as nazism, racism or nationalism which are more "exact" words.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Hilde

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Hilde' timestamp='1311610307' post='2275564']
Right wing extremism, here, is a fringe extremist right wing thing and usually means something to do with nationalism. This attack, as far as I have heard, was done to halt recruitment to the labor party(obv left wing) who has also been the governing party for quite a while( and therefore to blame for the "multiculturalsim", that he so despises). He was a member of the most blue party, Fremskrittspartiet, akin to the republicans, but of course he is extreme in his views and actions and do not represent this party in any way.



When the word is used it usually gives connotations such as nazism, racism or nationalism which are more "exact" words.
[/quote]
thanks, hilde!

i have a question for everyone that i saw on another blog, and perhaps hilde answered it, but: if he hated Muslims so much, why didn't he go shoot them up? (I'm not condoning his actions, just a legitimate question, i think).

[kujo]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1311610423' post='2275565']
thanks, hilde!

i have a question for everyone that i saw on another blog, and perhaps hilde answered it, but: if he hated Muslims so much, why didn't he go shoot them up? (I'm not condoning his actions, just a legitimate question, i think).
[/quote]

You're asking for a rational explanation for irrational behavior. You won't get that, but we can speculate--perhaps he thought his targets were part of the "system" that "allowed" the Muslims he hated so much to exist in his society. It's the same reasoning that al-Qaeda used when justifying its attacks on 9/11--the people in those planes and in those towers didn't do anything to their "people," but they were members of a society that allowed those actions to take place. Attacking them was an attack on the establishment.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1311610692' post='2275573']
You're asking for a rational explanation for irrational behavior. You won't get that, but we can speculate--perhaps he thought his targets were part of the "system" that "allowed" the Muslims he hated so much to exist in his society. It's the same reasoning that al-Qaeda used when justifying its attacks on 9/11--the people in those planes and in those towers didn't do anything to their "people," but they were members of a society that allowed those actions to take place. Attacking them was an attack on the establishment.
[/quote]
interesting.

[kujo]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1311611018' post='2275581']
interesting.
[/quote]

It's the rational-actor model approach, but twisted. I've done some writing on the subject, and coined the term "contextual rationalism" to describe the bounded rationality one experiences in moments of crisis. From the outside looking in, that rationality is anything but; however, in the moment, with the character and quality of the information possessed by the subject (or group of subjects), an irrational decision can appear rational.

[Jesus_lol]

well, this made me throw up in my mouth a little bit, Glen Beck basically defending everything this madman stood for, and then comparing the labour kids camp to the Hitler Youth. no wonder this guy's show is bombing nowadays.
[url="http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201107250006"]http://mediamatters....tv/201107250006[/url]

"There was a shooting at a poltical camp, which sounds a little like the Hitler Youth, or whatever- I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing."


despicable.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Jesus_lol

[BG45]

Yeah I saw that earlier. Darkly ironic coming from a man who dressed as a Nazi on a book cover and helps run a political youth camp of his own. It was definitely over the line on his part, and a completely unfounded allegation.

[CatherineM]

Rational explanations for irrational behavior is something I deal with on a daily basis.

[infinitelord1]

Does this have anything to do with the Current Debt Crisis and how Democrats are accusing Republicans of being Terrorists and unwilling to cooperate on the issue?

[Amppax]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1311565397' post='2275334']
I was thinking about this tonight and really, it would be better to avoid either left or right wing and discuss it in other terms that are more concrete. I was thinking authoritarian on one end and anarchism on the other, but I'm not sure that would work all that well. Especially when you told some Palinite they were firmly on the authoritarian side. And how would you deal with fascism's cooperation with private corporate entities (which clearly isn't approaching anarchy).
[/quote]

I'll refer you to the political compass. [url="http://www.politicalcompass.org/"]http://www.politicalcompass.org/[/url]

[Maggyie]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1311649395' post='2276029']
Does this have anything to do with the Current Debt Crisis and how Democrats are accusing Republicans of being Terrorists and unwilling to cooperate on the issue?
[/quote]

No.