"charismatic Catholics" - Theology Debate

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1312669162' post='2282580']

What has to be done in a certain manner? Speaking in tongues? Are you sure charismatics believe that what St. Paul describes and what often happens in charismatic meetings is thought of as being the same thing? Being pretty sure that you saw something in scripture isn't good enough. Neither is having a discussion with a priest. He is not an authority on the subject and can be wrong.

But you have completely side stepped the question, so again, how do you know that the renewal is not the work of the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]
Oh. I see. I'm not saying the Renewal is not a work of the Holy Spirit. I think there is some validity to what is going on within the Renewal. At the same time I think it becomes "of people" instead of "of the Holy Spirit". I don't believe everyone when they say they speak in tongues. I think in a lot of cases it is learned behavior.

Praying in tongues would be a different story. I think Praying in Tongues is more voluntary and controlled by the person who is doing it. Where as, Speaking in Tongues is completely involuntary, and totally controlled by the Holy Spirit.

I am not the only Catholic who is skeptical of the things that goes on in the Renewal.

Edited August 7, 2011 by infinitelord1

[BG45]

First of all, I think it needs restating what was said before. We are all called to be charismatic by the very fact that as Christians we should have received charism and gifts from the Holy Spirit. Any and every time we welcome the Holy Spirit within us, it is in effect charismatic at Seven77 said. To deny the Holy Spirit is to deny the Trinity.

As for the type of "charismatic" that's put into quotes in the thread title. I myself was very skeptical of it the first time I was invited to go to an event hosted by the Franciscans. I had been to Pentecostal churches and watched people writhe on the floor or scream hysterically. I braced myself, but told my new friends that I would be pleased to give it a shot. What I found when I went...well, let me dig up an old blog entry from September:

[quote]
So...I just had an interesting, I suppose would be the right word, experience. I was invited the other day to attend a Festival of Praise, a Charismatic Catholic event at Saint Vincent dePaul College (and Seminary) in Latrobe, Pennsylvania. If it sounds familiar, Mr. Rogers was born there.

Time and time again tonight I've been asked what I felt about it, did I enjoy myself? did I get anything out of it spiritually? Was it anything like I imagined it would be? Valid questions that are of definite interest to those who have gone before to pose to a person who has never gone to any sort of Charismatic event, at least in the Catholic Church.

I think the answer to that can be found in a number of things. The first of which is that I am not by nature a very Charismatic individual. My prayers tend to be conducted in the utmost silence, with a quiet dignity of sorts (or at least that's my perception of it). It is normally deep in silent prayer that I find I connect most to Him, especially in the presence of the Eucharist.

Thus, even in my Baptist days, and even the days I attended a predominantly Pentecostal college worship group, I was not exactly the Charismatic type. Indeed, the things I saw were often filled with emotion and little else that I could discern, but being a skeptic at heart I always tried to reserve judgment, knowing full well it could all be real and something that I did not personally feel. However people shouting at the top of their lungs in incomprehensible languages or flopping about on the floor tended not to resonate at all with me.

With that as my background in the Charismatic movement, I think it was entirely justifiable on my part to be a little bit nervous at first. Over the last couple of days, people have been trying to calm me a bit about it, which in its own way only served to make me a bit more nervous.

The second thing I think resonates with how tonight went is that of the atmosphere itself. The people around me were happy, but to an absolute tee they were probably the most respectful I've ever had the honor of worshiping Him alongside. For the most part they were also my age or younger, other than the priests.

Also in the category of atmosphere, so to speak, is how orderly everything was. Praise and worship music, testimonials and so forth, but all in their place. Then everything came to a halt as He was brought forward, the proper prayers spoken with awe and a hushed reverent tone as everyone knelt before the King of Kings.

The final thing that set the tone for me this evening was my own attitude. I went in skeptical, as I am wont to do. I left skeptical to an extent. Despite that skepticism, I was in a good mood throughout, and I welcomed the chance to actually see people on fire for God.

All that said, the experience in my humble opinion, was overall a good one for me. I was able to see that I'm not alone amongst the single and the on fire for God, nor that I was alone in my age group in being devout and devoted to Him. I was feeling pretty depressed throughout the day in regards to my singlehood and feeling isolated about it, but that passed at a point.

The point it passed during was the Adoration in silence of the most Blessed Sacrament. I knelt on the hard floor, having learned the hard way that chairs with kneelers in them are not steady in the slightest if you're larger than a church mouse, and I spilled out to Him all my worries and my fears in silence. Then I realized something, I was fulfilling a promise. When I went to Blessed Margaret of Castello's Perpetual Adoration Chapel on the way back to Pennsylvania I knelt before Him in the Eucharist and I softly promised I would go to Adoration in Pennsylvania at the first opportunity I had, because it has played such an important role in my faith and continues to do so. I didn't realize I could have gone Tuesday at another parish here in town, and I was reluctantly going to this event...and it hit me on my knees that I had swore to Him I would come as swiftly as I could. I had kept my promise to Him. "I swore to You my King and Friend, I would come to You in Adoration as swiftly as I could, and I have. I've kept my promise Lord".

I continued to kneel and I realized a few other things as I stayed before the Blessed Sacrament, things that lead me to soft tears. I've been struggling with my singlehood, now rather enforced thanks to my job, after planning for marriage and children. I've been struggling with moving on. I've been struggling to find Him again in my life as I read the Bible more than any other point in my life and find myself praying day after day.

Each day begins the same. I awake, I go to the bathroom. While in the shower I pray for some souls in Purgatory, and then I whisper, "And now Lord, I please pray for my physical, emotional, and spiritual healing, and that [name removed] and I may find the strength to forgive one another." I knelt before Him and I realized, I was not the only one who had kept my promise. I've not felt angry about the breakup or the mostly cut off contact in weeks now. Trust me, that is true emotional healing. I've been losing weight, my face has been looking better than it has in years, and a place that has stumped dermatologists on my chest has all but disappeared after being there for almost half my life. That is the sort of physical healing I have been praying for as well.

Of course that leaves the spiritual healing, doesn't it? I've blogged on my private blog this summer about my stretch of spiritual dryness and of the continuing Dark Night of the Soul I've been trapped in for many months. Punctuated as it is by rare moments of joy in Him again, usually for an hour a week during Mass I've found myself being the man I once was, once again. I realized on my knees that these past few weeks I've been more vibrant in my spiritual life than I have been in all these months, and I think I owe it at least in part to the Catholic Student Association and its kind members who have challenged me in ways I have never been challenged before.

I never would have discussed theology in a bar of all places before, let alone sip at a drink while doing so. Plus being able to discuss things intelligently with people of faith is so wonderful. I never would have gone of my own free will to a Charismatic event again, without having people I felt were trustworthy telling me it wasn't that bad. I never would have considered going to Mass with prisoners...which I should be able to do in October. I've also been challenged by at least a few of them, whether they realize it or not, to continue to pray the Rosary more than my simple Decade a day with my prayers for healing. (A Decade a Day keeps the Blessed Virgin at bay! No, not really.)

I can't stress enough what a major revelation that was for me, and I was still processing it late into the night as people kept asking me what I thought. Granted, that major revelation came about in my normal manner of prayer.

I slowly rose from my knees and settled once more back into my chair when I realized one of the girls I rode with was now on my left, the other was no longer on my right either, but rather a man in a cassock was. "Musical Catholic Chairs" was my later musing on the subject. I felt as though a great weight had been lifted from my shoulders as I sat there and stared at Him as the singing began anew.

I'll admit, I've been around people who work energy before. I've been around Pentecostals before as well, with their brand of the Charismatic movement. What I felt in that Crypt in the middle of rural Pennsylvania was neither of those things. I could hear the people praying, some not in a way I could understand; but it was not in bombastic tones and shrill shrieking of emotional outbursts, nor the profaned tongues of one being influenced by something not of God. It was hushed, reverent even. And if I'm to be totally honest with myself, there were points I could hear something at the edge of my hearing range that was soothing but I could never quite make out; skeptical as I am, I can't ignore something was going on there.

Eventually things came to an end. We all spoke, and planned, and did a little exploring. At the beginning of the night, CSA's President had told me there was a Marian shrine in the back, and I had meant to explore it then, but we were starting. So I took the time before we left to go in there. It was what I expected of a crypt; dark, lit by candles, gorgeous inlaid stone artwork on the walls. I knelt on a kneeler for a moment and said a Hail Mary, then I looked at the statue and mused, "Well your Son and I had a nice talk earlier in Adoration. Maybe we'll talk sometime soon too."

I turned down the offer of being prayed over, a thing at a time. There's always another First Friday to come. Yes, the revelatory moments of tonight happened in the form of prayer I am most comfortable with, but at the same time, I won't discount the Charismatic movement yet. I can't deny that something was moving in that Crypt, something I so rarely have felt over the years. The skeptic in me says I'm a fool, that I let the emotion of those around me influence me; but then again, as one of the women in the car said on the way back, sometimes faith is that little thing that goes beyond reason and allows for something more.[/quote]

I've probably been to a dozen or so "charismatic" events since. Each has been much the same; reverent and orderly. I've been prayed over, but never slain in the Spirit. But, for my own one proof that there may be something there, more than anything else, is my relationship with my father.

When I finally went up to ask a friar to pray over me one day, I didn't know for what I would ask. Then out of nowhere it hit me, for my relationship with dad. It's never been a good one, and it was reduced to an all time low after he "joked" with me that they hadn't gotten all of mom's cancer with the surgery. Then laughed in my face when I was about to cry like a baby.

I asked for prayer for healing in the way I saw my dad. So help me, it makes me a bad Catholic, but when I returned to my seat asking God when I'd feel different, I realized I didn't hate my dad any more, but I pitied him. I tried to summon up that hate which had become so commonplace, but it wasn't there any more. And it still isn't, almost a year later.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1312595264' post='2282183']
Okay here, I'll help. Here are a few:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=1078&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=99224&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=98116&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=93927&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=90076&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=35037&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=26579&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=13692&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[/quote]

Just to skip ahead 15 pages and jump to the conclusion of this thread which has been rehashed many times before, find the end of the story, here, here, here, here, or here.

[infinitelord1]

The Purpose of the Charasmatic Gifts are for the building up of the Church...


198. With His grace and His gifts, we may exercise our purpose to build-up the Church and the Faithful in order to bring the Gospel message to the world. In this, we exercise the Power of the Spirit, expressed in Love, and maintained through self- discipline. When we do this, we truly become Ambassadors for Christ (Excerpt from the rule of St. Michael).

Also....

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][sup][size=3][1 Corinthians 14]- 26[/size][/sup] What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. [sup][size=3]27[/size][/sup] If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. [sup][size=3]28[/size][/sup] If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.[/font]
----------------------------------------------

Speaking in Tongues became less common the Stronger the Church grew....

[size=2]In the earliest times, "the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues", which they had not learned, "as the Spirit gave them utterance". These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to shew that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, [b][size=3]and it passed away[/size][/b]. In the laying on of hands now, that persons may receive the Holy Ghost, do we look that they should speak with tongues? Or when he laid the hand on infants, did each one of you look to see whether they would speak with tongues, and, when he saw that they did not speak with tongues, was any of you so strong-minded as to say, These have not received the Holy Ghost; for, had they received, they would speak with tongues as was the case in those times? If then the witness of the presence of the Holy Ghost be not given through these miracles, by what is it given, by what does one get to know that he has received the Holy Ghost? Let him question his own heart. If he love his brother, the Spirit of God dwelleth in him. ([/size][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo"][size=2]Augustine of Hippo[/size][/url][size=2], 354-430)[/size]

[size=2]This whole phenomenon [of speaking in tongues] is very obscure, but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such then as used to occur but now no longer take place. And why do they not happen now? Why look now, the cause too of the obscurity hath produced us again another question: namely, why did they then happen, [b][size=3]and now do so no more[/size][/b]? ([/size][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysostom"][size=2]Chrysostom[/size][/url][size=2], 344-407)[/size]

[size=3]In Conclusion, The main purpose of the Charismatic Gifts was fulfilled during the times of the Earliest Apostles. They [Charisms] were to aid the growth of the Church. It seems that eventually, once the Church had been well established, the Charasmatic Gifts became extremely rare and seemingly non-existant. That is why I am skeptical about it today. I think the Catholic Charismatic Renewal serves its purpose...and it is possible that this purpose is to show Protestants that Catholics possess the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is my thoughts about the matter you are free to disagree.[/size]

[size=3]-Infinite[/size]

Edited August 7, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1312678488' post='2282657']These are Scriptural and occur in the timing of the Spirit. Prophecy is a common gift to all--those on the negative side of the debate posses it.
[/quote]
Could you expand on this a little bit, cause there's no way that you're saying what I imagine you're saying.

[1catholic]

[color=#000000]The title asks for a theology debate. Here are some questionable aspects for me. theologically, I'd like an explanation. The last quote is just me acknowledging the approval the mvmnt has received. [/color]

[color=#000000]-Wikipedia's 2cents (coloring is mine)-[/color]

[color=#000000]"Ranaghan [one of the founders of Catholic Charismatic Mvmnt] heard about a new work of [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit"][color=#000000]the Holy Spirit[/color][/url][color=#000000] in the lives of some friends at [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duquesne_University"][color=#000000]Duquesne University[/color][/url][color=#000000]. After an initial period of [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism"][color=#000000]skepticism[/color][/url][color=#000000], their [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer"][color=#000000]prayer[/color][/url][color=#000000] and study led him and his new wife to be [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_in_the_Holy_Spirit"][color=#ff0000]baptized in the Holy Spirit[/color][/url][color=#000000] [/color][color=#ff0000][? - he was already baptized Catholic - why use Protestant terms][/color][color=#000000] on March 5, 1967."[/color]

[color=#000000]"A Catholic church in [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Arbor"][color=#000000]Ann Arbor[/color][/url][color=#000000], [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan"][color=#000000]Michigan[/color][/url][color=#000000] describes charismatic prayer:[/color][indent=1][color=#000000]'A charismatic style of prayer is common at Christ the King. People are free to raise their hands in prayer and during songs, [/color][color=#ff0000]many pray their own prayers audibly[/color][color=#000000], some pray in tongues, etc.... They pray with expressive or charismatic prayer at monthly parish prayer meetings, at the beginning of parish meetings, and [/color][color=#ff0000]most especially during certain moments in the Holy Mass[/color][color=#000000]. These are some of the external markers of a charismatic parish. Internal markers include a radical surrender to the Lordship of [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus"][color=#000000]Jesus[/color][/url][color=#000000] [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ"][color=#000000]Christ[/color][/url][color=#000000] in all parts of life, a strong adherence to the Gospel and the teachings of the Catholic Church, and the pursuit of strong friendships centered on Christ.'[/color][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-0"][color=#000000][[/color][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-0"][color=#000000]1[/color][/url][color=#000000][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-0"]][/url][/color][/sup][color=#000000][sup]"[/sup][/color][/indent]

"Moreover, during Pentecost 1998, the Pope recognized the essential nature of the charismatic dimension:
[indent=1][color=#000000]'[/color][color=#ff0000]The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential[/color][color=#000000] as it were to the Church’s constitution. They contribute, although differently, to the life, renewal and sanctification of God’s People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church’s charismatic dimension that, before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclesial movements and new communities.'[/color][sup][color=#000000][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-13"][14][/url]"[/color][/sup]

[/indent]

Edited August 7, 2011 by 1catholic

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='1catholic' timestamp='1312752222' post='2283089']
[color=#000000]The title asks for a theology debate. Here are some questionable aspects for me. theologically, I'd like an explanation. The last quote is just me acknowledging the approval the mvmnt has received. [/color]

[color=#000000]-Wikipedia's 2cents (coloring is mine)-[/color]

[color=#000000]"Ranaghan [one of the founders of Catholic Charismatic Mvmnt] heard about a new work of [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit"][color=#000000]the Holy Spirit[/color][/url][color=#000000] in the lives of some friends at [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duquesne_University"][color=#000000]Duquesne University[/color][/url][color=#000000]. After an initial period of [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism"][color=#000000]skepticism[/color][/url][color=#000000], their [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer"][color=#000000]prayer[/color][/url][color=#000000] and study led him and his new wife to be [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_in_the_Holy_Spirit"][color=#ff0000]baptized in the Holy Spirit[/color][/url][color=#000000] [/color][color=#ff0000][? - he was already baptized Catholic - why use Protestant terms][/color][color=#000000] on March 5, 1967."[/color]

[color=#000000]"A Catholic church in [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Arbor"][color=#000000]Ann Arbor[/color][/url][color=#000000], [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan"][color=#000000]Michigan[/color][/url][color=#000000] describes charismatic prayer:[/color][indent=1][color=#000000]'A charismatic style of prayer is common at Christ the King. People are free to raise their hands in prayer and during songs, [/color][color=#ff0000]many pray their own prayers audibly[/color][color=#000000], some pray in tongues, etc.... They pray with expressive or charismatic prayer at monthly parish prayer meetings, at the beginning of parish meetings, and [/color][color=#ff0000]most especially during certain moments in the Holy Mass[/color][color=#000000]. These are some of the external markers of a charismatic parish. Internal markers include a radical surrender to the Lordship of [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus"][color=#000000]Jesus[/color][/url][color=#000000] [/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ"][color=#000000]Christ[/color][/url][color=#000000] in all parts of life, a strong adherence to the Gospel and the teachings of the Catholic Church, and the pursuit of strong friendships centered on Christ.'[/color][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-0"][color=#000000][[/color][/url][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-0"][color=#000000]1[/color][/url][color=#000000][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-0"]][/url][/color][/sup][color=#000000][sup]"[/sup][/color]


"Moreover, during Pentecost 1998, the Pope recognized the essential nature of the charismatic dimension:
[/indent]
[indent=1][color=#000000]'[/color][color=#ff0000]The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential[/color][color=#000000] as it were to the Church’s constitution. They contribute, although differently, to the life, renewal and sanctification of God’s People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church’s charismatic dimension that, before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclesial movements and new communities.'[/color][sup][color=#000000][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal#cite_note-13"][14][/url]"[/color][/sup]



[/quote]

[sup][size=3][1 Corinthians 14]- 26[/size][/sup] What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. [sup][size=3]27[/size][/sup] If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. [sup][size=3]28[/size][/sup] If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.[/indent]

[dells_of_bittersweet]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312587295' post='2282141']
I don't even like shaking hands at the sign of peace.
[/quote]

Why are people giving props to this? You're complaining about a legitimate part of the Mass and that's not okay in my book. While you're at it why don't you complain about the Eucharistic Prayer or the Gospel?

I know there won't be a sign of peace come Advent but it's not your place to be the arbiter of what the official parts of the Liturgy are.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1312651092' post='2282429']
People who are Charismatic Catholics go too far with it. The same applies to the Pentecostals. Most of the time it is just useless Jibber Jabber. Stuff that reminds me of a Shaman and his Tribe dancing around a fire speaking non sense. I will admit that there was one instance that got me thinking about its validity. But even then the guy was speaking in tongues outloud and publicly, in which case it is not being done properly. And I'm pretty sure that scripture says that there needs to be an interpreter and it needs to be done in a certain manner.
[/quote]

Wow. Just wow. I pray that the Lord is merciful and kind with you. That was harsh and assumes that all charismatic catholics are the same.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1312576789' post='2282046']
If that's your attitude, even a theological argument won't convince you.

The fact that the Renewal continues to bear fruit even today should be sufficient, though I understand your skepticism still.

I recommend Ralph Martin's book: "The Fulfillment of Desire" to read for some good points.
[/quote]
I absolutely looooooooooove that book!!!!

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1312767945' post='2283181']
Why are people giving props to this? You're complaining about a legitimate part of the Mass and that's not okay in my book. While you're at it why don't you complain about the Eucharistic Prayer or the Gospel?
[/quote]
Allowed? Perhaps. Legitimate? Not really.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1312767945' post='2283181']

I know there won't be a sign of peace come Advent but it's not your place to be the arbiter of what the official parts of the Liturgy are.
[/quote]

Erm, its not being removed - unless the priest chooses to omit it, like some do now.

[RezaMikhaeil]

To everyone, sorry that I haven't responded sooner and won't be that detailed in this email. I've been working consecutive 12.5-13hr days of manual labor and so I don't have much time but I will next weekend and then I'll get more involved here. Until that time here is a few points.

- I'd started this thread, as I'd stated previously because it has never been supported theologically. Most of you have once again proved my point. You say, "read these 50 books" without being able to make an articulate point yourself, let alone recite a point from those books that puts the nail in the coffin. That's probably why these threads continually get brought up and have not been settled.

- There is not one single verse in the entire Holy Scriptures of the Bible that support this theory of these supposed "charismatic gifts" being of the Holy Spirit. However there is a whole lot of evidence in history that says otherwise. Greek Pagans were known to engage in similar behavior. The montanists did too. Tertullian joined them and if memory serves me right, he was rejected as a saint and considered a heretic by the Church. It's modern revival came from the rebellious Protestant reformation, which is at odds with the Roman Catholic Church.

- Perhaps the Desert Fathers, who raised people from the dead wrote something about it? Ah....nope think again.

- Perhaps tradition says something? If we read the holies of the different Saints. We read that Pentecost is celebrated in the Catholic Church because it was the opposite of the Tower of Babel. The Tower of Babel was complete disorder, in which nobody understood each other, nor G-d. Pentecost was where everyone understood each other and heard the Holy Spirit/G-d. Charismatics refer to their "gifts" as "the baptism of the holy spirit". They cite scriptures in the Acts of the Apostles, describing the day of pentecost as "evidence". However what they do is the opposite of Pentecost. They all claim a different "prayer language", or "tongue", in which they claim the Holy Spirit put on their lips and in their hearts. However, none of them understood what they are saying, nor understood each other, so this is more like the Tower of Babel, then Pentecost. Pentecost was complete understanding.

Now sure, they all claim "its a language that G-d gives you. It helps your soul connect with G-d". Not only is this contrary to the Holy Scriptures but not true. Furthermore they often have people pose as "interpreters" of this mystical language, but in reality they can't interpret it because it's meaningless. They can't give a word for word translation, or even a summerization of individual sentences. They usually just say, 'this person is singing praises to G-d' or something general like this. I once did a study in which I went to approx. 50 charismatic churches. When they said, "come and recieve the baptism of the holy spirit", I went down there and began reciting the Muslim call to prayer in Arabic. Without fail, every single time these people took the bait and began saying, "Praise be G-d, he is singing praise to G-d with his new prayer language". Guess what idiots. I was saying "there is no G-d but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger". Afterward, I felt bad so I either told them the truth that day, or I wrote them a letter.

What was their respons afterwards? It went something along the lines of, "I had a bad feeling about you from the time that I met you. The Holy Spirit was telling me that you had many demons that were struggling over your soul, blah blah blah". As far as Charismatic Catholics, I have to ask the question. We're told that Baptism and Christmation have to do with the Holy Spirit. How can these individuals claim that these "gifts" are evidence of the Holy Spirit and that we're being "baptised with the holy spirit", if we've already had the spirit with us? Furthermore, why doesn't Pope Benedict, the man who is said to talk to Christ more direct then we're talking now, not pray in tongues or engage in these "gifts of the Holy Spirit"? Wouldn't he be one of the first to engage in such activities? This is why, in my opinion, these are incompatible with the Roman Catholic Church.

More importantly, there is one way in which G-d has given us to worship him. That is the liturgy. There is no other liturgy.

[RezaMikhaeil]

I should also note: Comparing the "charismatic gifts" to the Eucharist, are you serious? Those are apples and oranges. One originates with Jesus Christ and was taught by the Apostles themselves, the other orginated with non-Catholic religions and individuals that were Christian heretics. One is the body of Christ, the other claims to be the fruits of the Holy Spirit without evidence. Putting those two on the same level is like blasphemy if you ask me. That's like comparing food and mushy mud pie.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1312595264' post='2282183']
Okay here, I'll help. Here are a few:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=1078&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=99224&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=98116&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=93927&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=90076&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=35037&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=26579&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=13692&hl=charismatic&fromsearch=1"]http://www.phatmass....ic&fromsearch=1[/url]
[/quote]

Libeling charismatic brothers and sisters in Christ is not phat.

[maximillion]

Every Catholic is surely a charismatic Catholic by fact of Confirmation no? I don't understand what the fuss is about.
As for emotionality, God made me....ergo there must be some Divine plan for my emotions. If I can't include them as a natural part of worship I am denying a God given part of me.

[maximillion]

The seven gifts are enumerated in [url="http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Isaiah&verse=11:2-3&src=NASB"]Isaiah 11:2-3[/url] and conform to the Latin [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate"]Vulgate[/url][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit#cite_note-0"][1][/url][/sup], which takes the list from the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint"]Septuagint[/url] [url="http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Esaias/index.htm"][1][/url]. According to the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechism_of_the_Catholic_Church"]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/url][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit#cite_note-scborromeo1831-1"][2][/url][/sup] and descriptions outlined by St. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas"]Thomas Aquinas[/url] in the [i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_Theologica"]Summa Theologica[/url][/i].[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit#cite_note-TA-2"][3][/url][/sup] The seven gifts are described as follows:[list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom"]Wisdom[/url]:[/b] Also, the gift of wisdom, we see God at work in our lives and in the world. For the wise person, the wonders of nature, historical events,and other things that concerns the supreme order and the ups and downs of our lives take on deeper meaning. The matters of judgment about the truth, and being able to see the whole image of God. We see God as our Father and other people with dignity. Lastly being able to see God in everyone and everything everywhere.
[/list][list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understanding"]Understanding[/url]:[/b] In understanding, we comprehend how we need to live as a follower of Christ. A person with understanding is not confused by all the conflicting messages in our culture about the right way to live. The gift of understanding perfects a person's speculative reason in the apprehension of truth. It is the gift whereby self-evident principles are known, Aquinas writes.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_gifts_of_the_Holy_Spirit#cite_note-3"][4][/url][/sup]
[/list][list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counsel"]Counsel[/url] (Right Judgment):[/b] With the gift of counsel/right judgment, we know the difference between right and wrong, and we choose to do what is right. A person with right judgment avoids sin and lives out the values taught by Jesus. The gift of truth that allows the person to respond prudently, and happily to believe our Christ the Lord.
[/list][list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortitude"]Fortitude[/url] (Courage):[/b] With the gift of fortitude/courage, we overcome our fear and are willing to take risks as a follower of Jesus Christ. A person with courage is willing to stand up for what is right in the sight of God, even if it means accepting rejection, verbal abuse, or even physical harm and death. The gift of courage allows people the firmness of mind that is required both in doing good and in enduring evil, especially with regard to goods or evils that are difficult, just like [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc"]Joan of Arc[/url] did.
[/list][list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge"]Knowledge[/url]:[/b] With the gift of knowledge, we understand the meaning of God. The gift of knowledge is more than an accumulation of facts.
[/list][list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piety"]Piety[/url] (Reverence):[/b] With the gift of reverence, sometimes called piety, we have a deep sense of respect for God and the church. A person with reverence recognizes our total reliance on God and comes before God with humility, trust, and love. Piety is the gift whereby, at the Holy Spirit's instigation, we pay worship and duty to God as our Father, Aquinas writes.
[/list][list]
[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_the_Lord"]Fear of the Lord[/url] (Wonder and Awe):[/b] With the gift of fear of the Lord we are aware of the glory and majesty of God. A person with wonder and awe knows that God is the perfection of all we desire: perfect knowledge, perfect goodness, perfect power, and perfect love. This gift is described by Aquinas as a fear of separating oneself from God. He describes the gift as a "filial fear," like a child's fear of offending his father, rather than a "servile fear," that is, a fear of punishment. Also known as knowing God is all powerful. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Prov 1:7) because it puts our mindset in its correct location with respect to God: we are the finite, dependent creatures, and He is the infinite, all-powerful Creator.
[/list]

[Papist]

Shouldn't our identity be Catholic[Roman Catholic]? I never understood the need to label your Catholic identity as liberal, conservative, traditional, charismatic, etc.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1312816006' post='2283322']
Every Catholic is surely a charismatic Catholic by fact of Confirmation no? I don't understand what the fuss is about.
As for emotionality, God made me....ergo there must be some Divine plan for my emotions. If I can't include them as a natural part of worship I am denying a God given part of me.
[/quote]
It seems like thats when we receive the Gifts that are for the Building up of the Church. The other Gifts seem like they come at Baptism. Not really sure though.

Edited August 8, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1312819679' post='2283339']
Shouldn't our identity be Catholic[Roman Catholic]? I never understood the need to label your Catholic identity as liberal, conservative, traditional, charismatic, etc.
[/quote]
This. The only label worth taking is "orthodox".