"charismatic Catholics" - Theology Debate

[Papist]

How does one know that it is indeed the Holy Spirit moving you to speak in tongues, dance, etc.?

I never been moved to speak in tongues other than from my 4-year-old whining.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1312904234' post='2284771']
How does one know that it is indeed the Holy Spirit moving you to speak in tongues, dance, etc.?

I never been moved to speak in tongues other than from my 4-year-old whining.
[/quote]

Who said anything about dancing? And just because you've never been so moved, doesn't at all mean that no one could. I've never had a vision of Mary, but I'm not going around denying Marian apparitions (although as I write this i realize I may have just opened up a whole new can 'o' worms, oh well)

Edited August 9, 2011 by Amppax

[Papist]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1312904382' post='2284775']
Who said anything about dancing?
[/quote]
In another thread, a charismatic said she dances. Therefore, I added it and reasoned there are more charismatic actions.

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1312904382' post='2284775']
And just because you've never been so moved, doesn't at all mean that no one could. I've never had a vision of Mary, but I'm not going around denying Marian apparitions (although as I write this i realize I may have just opened up a whole new can 'o' worms, oh well)
[/quote]
I did not state that no one can be moved. I am sure it happens. I am curious to how one discerns the authenticity of the Holy Spirit. Hence, my question.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1312905010' post='2284777']
In another thread, a charismatic said she dances. Therefore, I added it and reasoned there are more charismatic actions.


I did not state that no one can be moved. I am sure it happens. I am curious to how one discerns the authenticity of the Holy Spirit. Hence, my question.
[/quote]

Ok I understand, sorry I took what you were saying the wrong way. Honestly, as I can't say I've had an experience such as the ones we're talking about, I probably am not the one to best answer the question. However I would say that it is the same way one discerns if any movement of the heart is of God. Namely carefully and honestly. I'm going to have to come back with more, but right now i'm a little busy, i've got more to say on the whole thing though. Later.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Amppax

[Papist]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1312905267' post='2284778']

Ok I understand, sorry I took what you were saying the wrong way. Honestly, as I can't say I've had an experience such as the ones we're talking about, I probably am not the one to best answer the question. However I would say that it is the same way one discerns if any movement of the heart is of God. Namely carefully and honestly. I'm going to have to come back with more, but right now i'm a little busy, i've got more to say on the whole thing though. Later.
[/quote]
I can only speculate b/c I also have not experienced or have not recognized it. But I would think one would have to used the same discernment as one would if some spirit talking to you was claiming to be God, the Father or the Son, e.g. like some new age people have claimed. Also, that it would take some time before acting out b/c I don't think it would be prudent to act out immediately when hearing spirits in your head.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1312884925' post='2284652']
All I'm saying is that it is not up to us to criticize how the Holy Spirit works within one another. Again, the Bible says "if there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God." If there is no interpreter and someone speaking in tongues is making it publicly known, then I agree with you, they are at fault in some way or another. However, the passage gives reason to believe that there are circumstances in which one will be given the gift of tongues when an interpreter is not present. It says that if that is the case, do not make your gift publicly known, because it will not benefit the community since nobody knows what the heck you're saying. It says to keep the conversing prayer with God to themselves. Someone can receive the gift of tongues in a private manner, to praise God in that unique way. I have been around a friend when she received the gift of tongues, having no prior knowledge or real exposure to it. I was sitting right next to her, and could barely hear what she was saying. She was praising "in private" so to speak, and afterwards, did not talk about what happened no matter how much we asked her. She felt it was supposed to be private. When people receive the gift of tongues, they don't always share it with others or make a show of it. Some might abuse it or stir it up on their own, but it's not ours to judge them or to decide what the Spirit has given them. That's theirs to deal with.
[/quote]

[b][i]You Said: If there is no interpreter and someone speaking in tongues is making it publicly known, then I agree with you, they are at fault in some way or another.[/i][/b]

I Say: It's not really about fault....my argument is saying that it is not really of the Holy Spirit...under the premise that the Holy Spirit would not speak through them when there is no interpreter.

[i][b]You Said: However, the passage gives reason to believe that there are circumstances in which one will be given the gift of tongues when an interpreter is not present.[/b][/i]

I Say: Where does this passage imply that?

Edited August 9, 2011 by infinitelord1

[RezaMikhaeil]

Thank you to everyone [Protestant and Catholic Charismatics] here for proving my point. There is no theological evidence for the charismatic doctrine in the Bible, Early Church Fathers, Desert Fathers and Mothers, etc.

Edited August 10, 2011 by RezaMikhaeil

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1312938452' post='2285218']
Thank you to everyone [Protestant and Catholic Charismatics] here for proving my point. There is no theological evidence for the charismatic doctrine in the Bible, Early Church Fathers, Desert Fathers and Mothers, etc.
[/quote]

So much charity here.

Otherwise, obviously because there can be no theological evidence (which I feel like is being used almost in a empiricist sense, which I find ironic) proves that there is little value in the Renewal as far as you are concerned.

God Bless

Edited August 10, 2011 by ThePenciledOne

[BG45]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1312941449' post='2285262']

So much charity here.

Otherwise, obviously because there can be no theological evidence (which I feel like is being used almost in a empiricist sense, which I find ironic) proves that there is little value in the Renewal as far as you are concerned.

God Bless
[/quote]

Wait we're trying to prove all of this empirically? In that case we could be in trouble, because really we're relying on a lot of things here:
1) We believe that a man rose from the dead on the word of eyewitnesses. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, usually around the 20% accuracy range.
2) We believe that this same man died for our sins, but can we empirically measure this sin even?
3) We believe that we have souls; I know there were once physicians who tried weighing people as they died to get empirical proof on the weight of the soul and failed.
4) We believe in a Holy Spirit that can't be recorded on any sort of data capturing medium except in actions that it inspires.
5) We believe in God the Father, a God whom we have not seen as well.
6) We believe that the man who rose from the dead also has a Real Presence in the Eucharist, which aside from Eucharistic Miracles is hard to empirically prove.
7) We believe that demons and angels exist, even though we don't see them (usually), and if someone sees them, we're back into the unreliability of eyewitness testimony.
8) We believe in a Virgin Birth, with only the written statements of two thousand years ago to back it up, from an era when people wrote about gods walking the Earth.
9) We believe in an afterlife that can't be empirically measured.
10) We believe in baptism leaving an indellible mark on the soul; a soul that as previously stated can't be empirically measured.

Faith and reason can coexist, and it's good to use both. As Adrestia's JP2 quote in her signature says, "[color=#4B0082][size=3]Science can purify religion from error and superstition; religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. ... Only a dynamic relationship between theology and science can reveal those limits which support the integrity of either discipline, so that theology does not profess a pseudo-science and science does not become an unconscious theology."[/size][/color]

That doesn't mean that everything in faith can be proven empirically. But, while we don't throw reason out the window, the qualitative experience, the "fruits" as it can be called in the Bible, are a matter that may be individual in nature.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1312941449' post='2285262']

So much charity here.

Otherwise, obviously because there can be no theological evidence (which I feel like is being used almost in a empiricist sense, which I find ironic) proves that there is little value in the Renewal as far as you are concerned.

God Bless
[/quote]

I think that if it goes against what scripture says then people have the right to be skeptical. I'm sure that there is some level of validity to the Renewal. I just think that people go overboard. Thats all.

[Amppax]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1312938452' post='2285218']
Thank you to everyone [Protestant and Catholic Charismatics] here for proving my point. There is no theological evidence for the charismatic doctrine in the Bible, Early Church Fathers, Desert Fathers and Mothers, etc.
[/quote]

people cited multiple books, and multiple threads. are you telling me you've read all of those, and haven't found anything? Until you can say that, please, don't make any judgments.

edited for charity.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Amppax

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1312946776' post='2285324']

I think that if it goes against what scripture says then people have the right to be skeptical. I'm sure that there is some level of validity to the Renewal. I just think that people go overboard. Thats all.
[/quote]

But it doesn't go against Scripture...if anything Scripture merely confirms it.

But again we've gone over this.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1312949535' post='2285373']

But it doesn't go against Scripture...if anything Scripture merely confirms it.

But again we've gone over this.
[/quote]

Someone, in this thread, said that Speaking in Tongues is not always done with an interpreter. Yet Scripture says that it should always be done with an interpreter.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1312943996' post='2285277']

Wait we're trying to prove all of this empirically? In that case we could be in trouble, because really we're relying on a lot of things here:
1) We believe that a man rose from the dead on the word of eyewitnesses. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, usually around the 20% accuracy range.
2) We believe that this same man died for our sins, but can we empirically measure this sin even?
3) We believe that we have souls; I know there were once physicians who tried weighing people as they died to get empirical proof on the weight of the soul and failed.
4) We believe in a Holy Spirit that can't be recorded on any sort of data capturing medium except in actions that it inspires.
5) We believe in God the Father, a God whom we have not seen as well.
6) We believe that the man who rose from the dead also has a Real Presence in the Eucharist, which aside from Eucharistic Miracles is hard to empirically prove.
7) We believe that demons and angels exist, even though we don't see them (usually), and if someone sees them, we're back into the unreliability of eyewitness testimony.
8) We believe in a Virgin Birth, with only the written statements of two thousand years ago to back it up, from an era when people wrote about gods walking the Earth.
9) We believe in an afterlife that can't be empirically measured.
10) We believe in baptism leaving an indellible mark on the soul; a soul that as previously stated can't be empirically measured.

Faith and reason can coexist, and it's good to use both. As Adrestia's JP2 quote in her signature says, "[color=#4B0082][size=3]Science can purify religion from error and superstition; religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. ... Only a dynamic relationship between theology and science can reveal those limits which support the integrity of either discipline, so that theology does not profess a pseudo-science and science does not become an unconscious theology."[/size][/color]

That doesn't mean that everything in faith can be proven empirically. But, while we don't throw reason out the window, the qualitative experience, the "fruits" as it can be called in the Bible, are a matter that may be individual in nature.
[/quote]
I profoundly [i]woot![/i] in your general direction.

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1312954107' post='2285405']

Someone, in this thread, said that Speaking in Tongues is not always done with an interpreter. Yet Scripture says that it should always be done with an interpreter.
[/quote]

Scripture says if there is no interpreter, that the person should pray in quiet. That's not the same thing as saying there has to always be an interpreter.

[BG45]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1313025505' post='2285577']
I profoundly [i]woot![/i] in your general direction.
[/quote]

Thank you good sir! And for the record, I still am skeptical regarding "charismatic" meetings. However, to be a proper skeptic, one has to keep open the possibility of it being a real renewal. I've experienced a form of healing I never thought could occur, but was it because of an outpouring of Spirit in the setting or not? The things I can say with the most certainty is that 1) People have tended to be reverent at each event I've been to. 2) It's nothing like the Pentecostal services I've been to; everything is a complete 180 from the writhing on the floor, hysterical laughter, screaming what sounded like gibberish I'd seen in those. 3) I've never attended one with less than 3 priests and almost a dozen Religious.

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1313026478' post='2285591']

Scripture says if there is no interpreter, that the person should pray in quiet. That's not the same thing as saying there has to always be an interpreter.
[/quote]
Just chiming in as someone who has been to Pentecostal and Charismatic Catholic stuff. At the former, it was always loud and outpouring in my opinion; it was not uncommon for people to scream and writhe. At the latter, people will go silent so very fast if there's to be a reading or someone speaking up front, and I have to struggle often to hear anyone speaking in tongues, because they do tend to be rather silent about it.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1313028029' post='2285619']

Thank you good sir! And for the record, I still am skeptical regarding "charismatic" meetings. However, to be a proper skeptic, one has to keep open the possibility of it being a real renewal. I've experienced a form of healing I never thought could occur, but was it because of an outpouring of Spirit in the setting or not? The things I can say with the most certainty is that 1) People have tended to be reverent at each event I've been to. 2) It's nothing like the Pentecostal services I've been to; everything is a complete 180 from the writhing on the floor, hysterical laughter, screaming what sounded like gibberish I'd seen in those. 3) I've never attended one with less than 3 priests and almost a dozen Religious.[/quote]
That's cool. I definitely have mostly skeptical thoughts about it, but really, I'm probably just a rando with an inordinate sense of opinion entitlement so I restrain myself from posting here. I have (or have had) friends who might describe themselves as charismatic Catholic and they're all better Catholics than me. In a specific context I might discuss it critically, but the last time I had a discussion with someone about it I was blunt and clearly offended them very much. Serious jerk award for me.

ETA: Completely off-topic but I remember answering the door on some Mormon missionaries with a beer in one hand and a cigarette in the other. Classic. "Hey Mormons, let me tell you something, the one true church...."

Edited August 11, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum

[Seven77]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1312938452' post='2285218']
Thank you to everyone [Protestant and Catholic Charismatics] here for proving my point. There is no theological evidence for the charismatic doctrine in the Bible, Early Church Fathers, Desert Fathers and Mothers, etc.
[/quote]

Please define "charismatic doctrine"... i sincerely want to understand your view.

[BG45]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1313028778' post='2285629']
That's cool. I definitely have mostly skeptical thoughts about it, but really, I'm probably just a rando with an inordinate sense of opinion entitlement so I restrain myself from posting here. I have (or have had) friends who might describe themselves as charismatic Catholic and they're all better Catholics than me. In a specific context I might discuss it critically, but the last time I had a discussion with someone about it I was blunt and clearly offended them very much. Serious jerk award for me.

ETA: Completely off-topic but I remember answering the door on some Mormon missionaries with a beer in one hand and a cigarette in the other. Classic. "Hey Mormons, let me tell you something, the one true church...."
[/quote]

I know those feelings...

Also on the off topic, that is epic with the Mormons. Almost reminds me of how my Confessor at home changed out of his clericals when he saw Mormon missionaries on his street, so he could actually get to speak with them!

[Deb]

All Charismatic gifts are to be used for the building up of the church, for the sanctification of the members and for the Glory of God. The early Christians lived with the power of the Holy Spirit motivating them, leading them to prayer, attracting them to the Lord. They were promised to us by God, they are mentioned in the bible, they are manifested all through the Acts of the APostles. Sadly, the power of the Holy Spirit was downplayed for centuries. Now, people are being graced with an awakening, a new release or baptism in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is bringing into their lives a new way, new gifts, graces, deeper virtue and the love of God. I know people who do have the gift of knowledge, people who have had the veil lifted and can see between heaven and earth, people who can heal by laying on of hands, Speaking in tongues is the least of all gifts and the least useful. There are different circumstances in which that gift is used and if the Holy Spirit flows out of you like a river and your prayer turns to tongues without your active participation and you are filled with the Spirit speaking through you up to God, you know your words are prayer going up to the heavens.
Are there those who are overly exhuberant? Yes. They are very annoying. Are there those who may just be doing things for show? Yes. Are there those who are like spiritual gluttons, going from place to place searching for a spiritual high? Yes.
But, many, many people have had their lives turned upside down and completely around by the gifts of the Spirit. The Spirit can work in a person without their knowledge, he can wake you in the night a dozen times while you are praying in tongues or singing praise or laughing in joy, all while he transforms your heart and your mind and your soul and making you a fool for your love of Christ.
Pentecost didn't just happen a long time ago. It is still happening and it is happening to those who open themselves up to a deeper conversion. You can receive the gifts of the Spirit without turning into a jumping/clapping/yelling lunatic. Some can't and I try to stay as far away from them as possible. You take the good things you like and you leave the things you dont' like. God does not expect everyone to work in the same manner, worship in the same manner or even be brought to holiness in the same manner or level.
If you find yourself a church where the Holy Spirit is alive and lifting the members up, stick around and see what it will do for you. My church would be considered Charismatic because the Holy Spirit is very alive in many of the members. The pastor is beyond reverant during the Mass and his Masses are insanely powerful. God is present in a manner that I have not found in most churches. People grow there,in personal sanctifcation and in love of each other. Now the music, I don't like it. I wrestle with that all the time. I offer it up and know I mostly only have to suffer it before and after Mass and then the Mass is where I lose myself in my Lord Jesus. I may speak in tongues in praise, when appropriate, I will not stand up and do the arm raise thing. I can barely sit upright with the power of the Mass, I can stand up when Mass is over, but only briefly. I am usually overcome with the power of communion with my Lord.
If a church is solid in its teachings, in line with Rome and its Bishops (ours is conservative) and bringing people into the faith and teaching the members to grow in their personal relationship with the Lord, then the charismatic tendencies are building up that church.
I don't usually do Charismatic conferences, they make my head blow off. I take what I can use and I leave the rest. The Lord directs me to what he wants me to learn and use in my life.
Pray unceasingly, asking the Holy Spirit to Come and grace us with all the gifts, graces and fruits that he has for us. Our transformation will be never ending. Do Not Be Afraid. It is mostly all good.