An Evil God

[Aloysius]

say that the God we believe in didn't exist, but there was instead an obviously evil god who was all powerful, who had his followers do wicked things to cause suffering for no reason, to lie and murder and steal, and if you didn't submit to him you would be eternally punished with no hope of ever ending the suffering. you die and are given the choice: serve the evil god, and be a part of directly causing evil things to happen, or suffer eternally for your moral stance against him. what do you do?

would anyone have the strength to be good in a topsy-turvy world where evil was so powerful? discuss.

[Amppax]

Wow. That is a pretty incredible idea. As much as I would like to say that I would be good in such a backwards world, I would have to admit that I probably couldn't. As for the if anyone would, I would say yes. But because the nature of most people is to be self-serving, i think this number would be very limited indeed. However, looking through history, there are obvious examples of people who completely went against their own self interest to do what they knew was right. So it is clear that people are capable of doing good. These circumstances would obviously try even the strongest people though. I honestly don't know how I think people would act.

[Guest]

That would be horrible. Thank God He is loving and good.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Guest

[iheartjp2]

DISCLAIMER: My capitalization of the word 'God' is based on the concept of the creator, sustainer, and arbiter of reality of a universe, be it real or hypothetical. Only pronouns that stand for God Himself will be capitalized respectively.

It's interesting that you call this 'God' evil. If he is God the same way the God who revealed Himself to us is God, then what constitutes evil and good? If this is a topsy-turvy universe, wouldn't good ultimately exist in this God? Can one use the concepts of this universe to define those of a hypothetical universe that is somehow inverted? If the God whom we serve did not exist and instead another God existed in place of Him, and I were in this universe and this God promoted what we call evil, I would be justified in committing acts that we call evil, certainly. I, however, would not be justified in acting in a way that we call moral. To what could I appeal to say with confidence that what we call goodness is actually good? Objectively speaking, if I were what we call good, I wouldn't need strength, virtue, or morality to uphold me because the truth would be against me.

[rizz_loves_jesus]

Would there even be such a thing as goodness in this world?

[Amppax]

This thread obviously touches (ok, more like jumps right into) the issue of whether morality exists separately from God or whether it is dependent on Him. I would say in this crazy world we are imagining (although our own is pretty whack itself) I would be comforted by the idea of a morality that exists independent of this god, but at the same time, I couldn't admit to that idea without at the same time morality is independent of God, which is something that I'm pretty sure i don't believe (as in, morality is dependent on the existence of God)

Edited August 9, 2011 by Amppax

[Aloysius]

everything is the same except this god promotes hate instead of love, death instead of life, falsity instead of truth. but he's still the creator and sustainer in this hypothetical. so then, is morality just what God says it is? those who get to go to heaven have to kill innocent babies and make sure those babies' souls suffer in hell eternally. but the god says it's okay. is it wrong to stand against such a god?

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1312864106' post='2284572']
This thread obviously touches (ok, more like jumps right into) the issue of whether morality exists separately from God or whether it is dependent on Him. I would say in this crazy world we are imagining (although our own is pretty whack itself) I would be comforted by the idea of a morality that exists independent of this god, but at the same time, I couldn't admit to that idea without at the same time morality is independent of God, which is something that I'm pretty sure i don't believe (as in, morality is dependent on the existence of God)
[/quote]

This.

Because all things that exist were created by God (visible and invisible), there's no way that moral truths can exist apart from Him.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1312864278' post='2284580']
everything is the same except this god promotes hate instead of love, death instead of life, falsity instead of truth. but he's still the creator and sustainer in this hypothetical. so then, is morality just what God says it is? those who get to go to heaven have to kill innocent babies and make sure those babies' souls suffer in hell eternally. but the god says it's okay. is it wrong to stand against such a god?
[/quote]

Based on what you said, I think it would be wrong to defy this hypothetical God.

[Aloysius]

interesting. I think that demanding obedience to such a god is akin to saying that 'might makes right'. such a being would be omnipotent, and the source of the whole universe, but if that being demanded that I torture an innocent man or murder a baby, I would not consider that to be moral even if the being said that it was. so I guess that comes across as me holding to a principal of morality that is not dependent upon God, ie that I have a morality that I would follow whether or not an omnipotent being said I should or not; indeed, whether an ultimate god was moral or not, I would want to be moral, whether a God existed at all or not, I would have morality

of course, in our reality I do hold that God is by His nature Goodness itself. things aren't good just because God decides they are by whim, things are good because God is good by nature and He created the other good things. and I love God not just because He's omnipotent and the source of all creation, I love Him for being so good. but all of that would not exist in a world where the only difference was that the god was evil; I would hate the god who was evil even if that god was the omnipotent source of all existence and the creator and sustainer of all things.

anyway, I started this thread thinking there might be some interesting discussion generated between theists and atheists on the phorum by this particular hypothetical I'll wait for more replies before I offer more thoughts, kind of want to see where the discussion goes on its own.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Aloysius

[Laudate_Dominum]

[i]Non serviam! [/i]Basically the proverbial middle finger. Existence would be ultimate terror and despair, might as well be pissed about it. Hell would be all there is I guess.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Would it be worth trying to hope and live as though there is some lasting good in existence, even if this probably wasn't so? I mean, isn't some hope, no matter how minuscule, better than total despair?

[stevil]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1312885822' post='2284659']
interesting. I think that demanding obedience to such a god is akin to saying that 'might makes right'. such a being would be omnipotent, and the source of the whole universe, but if that being demanded that I torture an innocent man or murder a baby, I would not consider that to be moral even if the being said that it was. so I guess that comes across as me holding to a principal of morality that is not dependent upon God, ie that I have a morality that I would follow whether or not an omnipotent being said I should or not; indeed, whether an ultimate god was moral or not, I would want to be moral, whether a God existed at all or not, I would have morality

of course, in our reality I do hold that God is by His nature Goodness itself. things aren't good just because God decides they are by whim, things are good because God is good by nature and He created the other good things. and I love God not just because He's omnipotent and the source of all creation, I love Him for being so good. but all of that would not exist in a world where the only difference was that the god was evil; I would hate the god who was evil even if that god was the omnipotent source of all existence and the creator and sustainer of all things.

anyway, I started this thread thinking there might be some interesting discussion generated between theists and atheists on the phorum by this particular hypothetical I'll wait for more replies before I offer more thoughts, kind of want to see where the discussion goes on its own.
[/quote]
How would you recognise that a god were evil?

An evil god may inspire people to write scripture, to make deceptive assertions that it is Good. It may even confuse you by telling stories of how it went about killing almost every human, animal and plant on the planet, however you would still love it and think it is perfect and good.
It could tell of stories of setting bears onto small children for the crime of teasing a man about his bald head and yet you still would think this god is Good.
It may make bold statements that gay people should be put to death or that people who work on Sunday should be put to death or people who have sex out of wedlock or with people who are already married to someone else should be put to death. You would still think this god is Good.
It may tell stories of gambling on someone's life, even knowing that the outcome of that gamble would result in this person's loved ones being killed, and you would still think this god is Good.
It could kill all the first born of a race of people just to prove that it is god and powerful, and you would think it is Good.

I don't think any Christian could think the god of the bible is anything but Good regardless of whether the bible was inspired by god or the devil.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1312887688' post='2284664']
How would you recognise that a god were evil?

An evil god may inspire people to write scripture, to make deceptive assertions that it is Good. It may even confuse you by telling stories of how it went about killing almost every human, animal and plant on the planet, however you would still love it and think it is perfect and good.
It could tell of stories of setting bears onto small children for the crime of teasing a man about his bald head and yet you still would think this god is Good.
It may make bold statements that gay people should be put to death or that people who work on Sunday should be put to death or people who have sex out of wedlock or with people who are already married to someone else should be put to death. You would still think this god is Good.
It may tell stories of gambling on someone's life, even knowing that the outcome of that gamble would result in this person's loved ones being killed, and you would still think this god is Good.
It could kill all the first born of a race of people just to prove that it is god and powerful, and you would think it is Good.

I don't think any Christian could think the god of the bible is anything but Good regardless of whether the bible was inspired by god or the devil.
[/quote]
Hahaha. [i]Go on up, you bald head! [/i]

Srsly though, meesa thikin you hijackin Al's fun thread a bit here. Maybe.

[Laudate_Dominum]

There should be a spell in WoW or something called [b]Summon She-Bears[/b]. When elite clerics are really mad...

[spoiler]

[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/she-bears.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/shebears.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/variosity/blackhawk_sg.gif[/img]

[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/variosity/bear_wrestling.gif[/img]


NOM NOM NOM

[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/STP/NomNOMNOMNomNOMNOM_73f422_559987.gif[/img]

[/spoiler]

[Aloysius]

yeah, the point is not to debate whether the God we believe in is good or evil, though I think there may be appropriate asides made about what we think about God as we believe in him, those should just be asides to the topic. I don't want to debate the scriptures here, but suffice it to say if Jesus Christ were to appear to me and tell me to go randomly kill some guy for no good reason, or feed a child to a bear for having teased someone about a bald head, I would refuse and say "go away Satan, I know that you appear as an angel of light to deceive". the circumstances of all these bible stories are debateable for other threads, of course, and the lessons they teach and their proper meaning and all that can be discussed, but this is not a thread about the God of the scriptures, this is a thread about a bona fide evil god, that all of us Christians who do not see the things you have cited as activities that would be moral to do (again, we could debate the morality of those historical events, the nature of those stories, and the lessons they were meant to teach) would recognize as evil.

so yeah, I believe in a God who doesn't command murder or rape or genocide or lying or stealing; but what if there were a god who did indeed command murder and rape and genocide. I'm not interested in your view that the god of scriptures theoretically commands evil things in the stories of the Hebrew people, let's ignore the stories of the Hebrew people for a moment.

here's the scenario: you show up before the massive golden gate in the clouds and a booming voice announces that if you go back to earth and slaughter three innocent babies, then throw their souls into an eternal hell of torture from which they will never escape, then you get to come into paradise and enjoy eternal happiness. if you refuse to do that, you must suffer eternal suffering yourself. clear-cut scenario, we all recognize that the being with the booming voice is evil (though maybe Abram would've gone back after those babies because he really wanted to add an h to his name, right? haha, but I digress, didn't mean to open up a debate about the story of the sacrifice of Isaac and what it teaches about faith and what not and how it prefigures Christ, since no one should ever think that God is calling them to kill their child, or any child; we don't believe in a God who would ever want us to kill our children)

Edited August 9, 2011 by Aloysius

[stevil]

So you are choosing to do good irregardless of god.
You are believing in a good god irregardless of the true nature of a god that may actually exist.

This is probably similar to atheists who choose to do what they personally deem to be good, irregardless of what any scriptures or religions teach.
We are not that different from each other (atheists and theists), although there are many misconceptions on both sides of the fence. I am sure you know about Atheists that live a very selfish life and I have heard of Christians that do bad things in the name of their god, we tend to focus on our differences rather than our similarities and we tend to create characatures of people belonging to groups that we are not familiar with.

An evil god, I certainly would not do what I am told if it compromises my personal values. Even if a good god wanted me to compromise, i would not. But I still maintain that it might be very difficult to know if a god is good or evil.

[Aloysius]

indeed, it is good to have some common moral ground, this crazy radical hypotethetical presumes a certain common ground between some atheists and some theists, which is why I thought it might be an interesting topsy-turvy kind of discussion.

"But I still maintain that it might be very difficult to know if a god is good or evil. "
valid point. I did of course pick outrageous examples to illustrate without a doubt that the god in this scenario was definitely evil. there are more controversial issues where it'd be harder to tell; I'd hope I would have the humility to re-evaluate my position on some less obvious issue if I approached the heavenly gates to discover that an all-good all-powerful God disagreed with me; there must be some mixture between the courage of one's convictions and the humility to recognize one's own limited ability to know things. there's a fine line between conviction and stubbornness sometimes.

anyway, so what you're saying is that you'd face eternal suffering and abandon all hope for the sake of your personal convictions. I admire that, but what a choice that would be. earlier it was said that there are many examples of self-sacrificial behavior for the greater good, but that self sacrificial behavior generally was done with the belief that it would either bring that person to an eternal reward (heaven), or at least to an eternal rest (oblivion); what kind of strength would it take to sacrifice yourself with full knowledge it would bring you to eternal hopeless torture?

[Aloysius]

and yes, before anyone beats me to it, this is indeed a Kobiyashi Maru of theodicy.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Aloysius

[Papist]

If the all loving and merciful God did not exist, then why not be evil?