An Evil God

[Aloysius]

I believe in God because I believe in the good; if there were no good God, I think I'd still want to believe in goodness. I'd still want to love others, hopefully. I'd still think it was self-destructive to be selfish, that it was admirable to be heroic and helpful, and that killing innocent people is wrong.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1312893804' post='2284700']
If the all loving and merciful God did not exist, then why not be evil?
[/quote]
The host of natural reasons for behaving in a way that is fair, congenial, socially healthy, and good. Good things such as altruism, empathy, and natural virtue are not dependent upon a monotheistic worldview and are desirable in spite of one's take on the supernatural. No?

[Papist]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1312894474' post='2284705']
The host of natural reasons for behaving in a way that is fair, congenial, socially healthy, and good. Good things such as altruism, empathy, and natural virtue are not dependent upon a monotheistic worldview and are desirable in spite of one's take on the supernatural. No?
[/quote]
No. I don't see it like that. If all that existed is an evil god, we would not know good. People are responding as you did b/c in real life there exist an all loving and merciful God. But if one never existed, they would not know such things.

[sixpence]

1. I expect that if I grew up in a world created by an evil god, that I would not have the same concept of morality that I do now. Therefore, I probably would not regard this god as "evil".
2. Would an evil god really give people free will?
3. i hate the "word" irregardless

[Aloysius]

we have a good God and yet there is evil in the world. perhaps this evil god permits good to be in the world, basically because if there wasn't anything good in the world, he wouldn't have anything to mess with in evil ways. so we all grow up in a relatively similar world, but the evil god directly does evil things to puppies and children without a greater good in mind, arbitrarily tortures people who don't deserve it for eternity in his hell. so basically you still look around you and see that there is goodness in nature and in babies' laughter and in saving a kitten from a fire, but the god in charge of it all is evil.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1312894996' post='2284706']
No. I don't see it like that. If all that existed is an evil god, we would not know good. People are responding as you did b/c in real life there exist an all loving and merciful God. But if one never existed, they would not know such things.
[/quote]
If reality was based upon an evil deity the good might just be a play thing. Hope, love, life, goodness--perhaps it's all part of a sadistic game. Like when a torturer gives a captive false hope in their release simply for the sake of violently dashing that hope and seeing the despair.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1312895343' post='2284709']
we have a good God and yet there is evil in the world. perhaps this evil god permits good to be in the world, basically because if there wasn't anything good in the world, he wouldn't have anything to mess with in evil ways. so we all grow up in a relatively similar world, but the evil god directly does evil things to puppies and children without a greater good in mind, arbitrarily tortures people who don't deserve it for eternity in his hell. so basically you still look around you and see that there is goodness in nature and in babies' laughter and in saving a kitten from a fire, but the god in charge of it all is evil.
[/quote]
Saw this after I posted. My bad.

[Aloysius]

lol we seem to be on the same wavelength.

[Papist]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1312895343' post='2284709']
we have a good God and yet there is evil in the world. perhaps this evil god permits good to be in the world, basically because if there wasn't anything good in the world, he wouldn't have anything to mess with in evil ways. so we all grow up in a relatively similar world, but the evil god directly does evil things to puppies and children without a greater good in mind, arbitrarily tortures people who don't deserve it for eternity in his hell. so basically you still look around you and see that there is goodness in nature and in babies' laughter and in saving a kitten from a fire, but the god in charge of it all is evil.
[/quote]
What would be the source of this good in the world?

[Aloysius]

the rebellion of Ada and Steve who refused to eat from the forbidden tree brought goodness into the world.

lol, jk, let's not get too detailed (though I was kind of thinking this might be an interesting topic of a novel, but ultimately it'd be too dark I think) basically the whole universe is precisely the same except that the will of god is for evil to be done. the evil god created everything, he created good because he needed good things in order to do great amounts of evil to them (because it's not nearly as evil if you're doing evil things to evil things). basically all the trees and flowers and woodland creatures are all still there; and trees and flowers and woodland creatures are all good things, even to an atheist, and even in a world where there was an evil god who hated those things.

[Papist]

A world where Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao are moral theologians. Now that is a movie for Oliver Stone.

[Laudate_Dominum]

A troll face god who created the universe for teh lulz would be kind of craap too.

[Papist]

[Laudate_Dominum]

What if, instead of a vast universe or whatever, God had just created a single person in a single room with a screen playing the following video on infinite repeat. All things are possible with God.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df6Rfsi6zSY[/media]

[stevil]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1312896425' post='2284717']
I was kind of thinking this might be an interesting topic of a novel, [/quote]

His Dark Materials is a great trilogy along these lines, the books keep you guessing as to whether the god is good or evil.
But beware, the Catholic church publically condemed it, not really sure why, but they said it has Atheistic Theme, what ever that is???

[fides' Jack]

This is touching on a much deeper and more personal question than I think the poster intended. I wonder if Abraham asked himself the same question before he decided to obey God and kill his son.

These days, people are so caught up in having their own opinions. Everyone is so obsessed with not "following blindly" that they require confirmation from themselves before they're willing to do what faith requires of them. To them I say that if you aren't willing to follow the Church and God blindly, then you don't have real faith.

Think about it this way. There are a number of examples in the Old Testament in which God ordered people to be killed. Doesn't this prove that God is the source of goodness? If people disobeyed Him because they think they know better than God, that only proves their own lack of humility, wisdom, and faith.

If God wants the entire world to suffer in hell for all eternity, then so be it, because it is His will. We were not created for the purpose of being "moral". We were created for the purpose of "knowing, loving, and serving God".

That is all.

[Amppax]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1312918347' post='2284950']

His Dark Materials is a great trilogy along these lines, the books keep you guessing as to whether the god is good or evil.
But beware, the Catholic church publically condemed it, not really sure why, but they said it has Atheistic Theme, what ever that is???
[/quote]

Meh, thought the books were kinda lame, but my brother liked them. And Pullman himself said that his books were about killing God, I think that its not totally inaccurate to put that under the heading of Atheistic (considering a lot of atheism takes a rather anti-theistic bend)

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1312918347' post='2284950']

His Dark Materials is a great trilogy along these lines, the books keep you guessing as to whether the god is good or evil.
But beware, the Catholic church publically condemed it, not really sure why, but they said it has Atheistic Theme, what ever that is???
[/quote]
The Catholic Church publicly condemned it? Doubtful. Many Catholic individuals have been critical of the trilogy for its atheist agenda, no surprise there. Here's an instance of what Amppax was referring to.

"I've been surprised by how little criticism I've got. Harry Potter's been taking all the flak. I'm a great fan of J.K. Rowling, but the people - mainly from America's Bible Belt - who complain that Harry Potter promotes Satanism or witchcraft obviously haven't got enough in their lives. Meanwhile, I've been flying under the radar, saying things that are far more subversive than anything poor old Harry has said. My books are about killing God." source: [url="http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/12/1071125644900.html"]The Shed Where God Died[/url]

After The Golden Compass film was released there were some threads on phatmass that probably have some good information about this. 'Twas sort of a flash in the pan as I recall.


Amppax,

This is off-topic but in reference to your comment on my status I've just got to say...

[spoiler][img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/129044501967390534.jpg[/img][/spoiler]

Edited August 9, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum

[Amppax]

haha that poster was exactly what i was thinking of!

[Aloysius]

fides' jack,
I don't think I have that blind faith you speak of to do something that I believed to be immoral. The story of Abraham and Isaac is an interesting example, I have read commentaries which indicate that there were indications that Abraham was actually misinterpretting God's command to begin with, but that his willingness to give everything to God was still praiseworthy. God obviously never intended Abraham to kill Isaac, so was God deceiving Abraham when he commanded the sacrifice? no, God is not a God of deception, I believe it more likely that Abraham misinterpretted. and when you read between the lines from the Hebrew text in the semitic mindset, it is clear that this event scarred Isaac and that Sarah never forgave Abraham for it and basically split from him for it. it teaches us that we should be willing to give up everything we ever wanted for God, but I don't think we ought to obey a command to kill our own child if it seemed that God was telling us to do so.

Christ no longer calls us servants, but friends, and He has entrusted the fullness of revelation to us in the Church on matters of faith and morals; such that we can be sure to not misinterpret any of his commands as Abraham did, that we can know it comes from God if it is consonant with the morality the Church of Christ teaches. that's how I would see it.

I understand the point about not trusting one's own intellect, about being humble, but God does not make evil things moral by His say so as creator; something which is evil is evil, and if some vision appeared which claimed to be the omnipotent God came and told you to do something you believed was evil, you should not blindly follow; if you have faith in a good God you should have faith that the apparition is false.

if God commanded you to kill some innocent man because He is in charge of life and death and He wants that innocent man to die, ask Him why He does not just do it Himself. in short, ask that god what need he has of a starship.

oh and I started the golden compass sometime last spring, but I kind of completely forgot about it. I didn't even get to any part about god, so I didn't get all that far perhaps, I think just through the first part of that first book. It was relatively interesting. The Pullman quote is funny, though, the reason he didn't get nearly as much flak as J.K. Rowling is because he wasn't nearly as popular lol.

btw, there will be bonus points awarded at the end of this thread for those who keep track of how many Trek references I randomly make.