The Texas Unmiracle

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1313558125' post='2289731']


I fundementally disagree, I think someone saying " if we can't change this its going to have to be destroyed, so lets try to change it" is a perfectly viable and logical position. I understand exactly what you are trying to say I simply disagree, I think that says that he indeed would make his decisions with the interests of the entire country at heart, the interest of the entire country, those interest being the changing the relationship of the Federal government to the States.


I prefer the term dictatorship for what is happening here, most western monarchs were bound by custom, our President is decidedly not. The Constitution is indeed being used as toilet paper. Perry claims he intends to restore the proper relationship of the States to the central government. That seems like exactly what is needed, I don't know the man personally, I have met him, he seemed sincere enough, but he is a politician so I take that with more than a grain of Salt, but he seems like the only person in the race who has actually stated that this relationship must be changed. He has said it dramaticly, by stateing that if it doesn't the country will break. What would you have someone running for president say, if not that the Fedral government needed to return local control to the States?
[/quote]

Dictatorship? Hardly. Don't ascribe more power to the presidency than actually exists. What exists in this country is an oligarchy where the determining factor of status is not legacy, it's money. The president is the figurehead piece in a group of people who pull strings and make decisions based solely on the power inherent in large sums of money. Government by this bunch has absolutely zero to do with the welfare of the people. It is all about how can the political game be played to the greatest advantage to maximize profits. The president, if he is unfortunate enough to be considered nouveau riche among the power players, only has as much leeway to operate as the purse-string pullers permit him. Obama is no different. If he took a grand swipe at legitimate leadership, and tried to enact some piece of legislation (regardless of what it was) that actually did some benefit for the country and the people, he'd be summarily set aside if that action in any way conflicted with the deep pockets at the top. Political largesse ends when the profit margin no longer suits.

I still think that public advocacy of secession is incompatible with trying to say that you want to the leader of a union, but that's my perspective, and we can agree to disagree on that point. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter what Perry says. He wants to restore power to the states? Nice idea. However, when you hand the keys of the castle over to someone, their first act is rarely going to be knocking down the gate and covering the moat...the whole "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" concept. Government has a way of making Machiavellians out of otherwise decent people.

[dairygirl4u2c]

usually, zoning is 'less worse'. getting hosed like that is an outlier.
most people who have their property taken from them, even if they are paid, would probably rather have had nothing given to them, and simply told to keep the gutters in good shape. (or whatever other zoning rule

[Socrates]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1313539944' post='2289476']

I don't think that was his argument.[/quote]
That was the gist of it. It was obvious Krugman's real enemy is not Governor Perry, but "conservative economic policies."


[quote]I know. The loving God was so swift to answer the prayers of the faithful and end the drought. I bet Krugman feels like a dumbass.


[url="http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/"]http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/[/url]

[/quote]
Yes, I'm well aware of the drought. I'm living in the midst of it.

And yes, I'm another one of those unenlightened drooling idiots who prays for rain.

God may or may not bring rain as He in His infinite Wisdom sees fit. God is not some genie who is obligated to do whatever people tell Him to.

However, that does not mean petitioning God is worthless or futile. Prayer benefits the pray-er by bringing him into the proper relationship to God by acknowledging our dependence on Him for all things and paying Him proper homage. God will reward those who trust in Him and pray earnestly to Him either in this life or the hereafter.

And yes, I realize what I said will likely simply provoke more mockery from you, but I don't care.

Governors and presidents have declared public prayer in times of trial from the beginning of this country, going back to George Washington. You may as well mock him and Abraham Lincoln as well.

And again, I find mocking prayer in the face of natural disaster to score ideological points despicable, but that's what one can expect from liberalism.

But I suppose the meteorological data proves beyond a doubt that only staunch atheists should be in public office.

[quote]Here or in general? It's true that he didn't promote his own argument in this particular article. But he most certainly has elsewhere.[/quote]
Exactly, and his attacks on Perry do nothing to prove that our country going deeper into debt (after $ 14 trillion and counting!) and the government spending yet more money it does not have will save our economy. We're broke, but we just can't ever spend enough.



[quote]I'd guess that Germany is more the sort of backwards, socialist hell-hole that Krugman has in mind.[/quote]
More like Greece.

[url="http://www.ft.com/indepth/greece-debt-crisis"]http://www.ft.com/indepth/greece-debt-crisis[/url]

That's the road Obamanomics will head us down.



[quote]Not really.


[url="http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/category/gps-episodes/"]http://globalpublics...y/gps-episodes/[/url]




Yeah. You can. Krugman did that here. You still have not actually attacked his argument with a counter argument. You just pontificated for a bit, set up a straw man, pontificated a bit more, the end. More Sophist than Socratic.[/quote]
Sweet mullet, bro.

[dairygirl4u2c]

usually, zoning is 'less worse'. getting hosed like that is an outlier.
most people who have their property taken from them, even if they are paid, would probably rather have had nothing given to them, and simply told to keep the gutters in good shape. (or whatever other zoning rule

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1313618768' post='2290107']

Did you actually read my post, I said quite explicitly that I thought there would be higher casualties but that that was NOT the reason I opposed the war. Soldiers die in war, that is the way of it, if you are not prepared to die, or to kill, don't go for a soldier.

I opposed the invasion becuase he protected his Christians, and no one else over there,, including our "allies" could say that.
[/quote]
Whoops, my bad. Forgive my misreading.


I'll stop hijacking the thread tho

Edited August 18, 2011 by Ice_nine

[dairygirl4u2c]

remember, 'borrow and spend' is just as much a conservative thing. started with reagan, in fact, that's where we really began messing up.
conservative would rather cut spending, im sure, than borrow, but liberals would rather increase taxes. an in truth, normal people would find a healthy balance... our downfall could very well be our bull headed democracy. that's why we have to lets the executive branch do so much, or we have a group of twelve decide our budgetary solutions.

[Amppax]

this thread got fun while i was gone.

[Jesus_lol]

Rick Perry had an innocent man executed when he refused to stay the execution of Cameron Todd Willingham when new forensic evidence exonerated him.
[url="http://articles.cnn.com/2009-10-01/justice/texas.execution.probe_1_willingham-case-cameron-todd-willingham-execution?_s=PM:CRIME"]http://articles.cnn....ion?_s=PM:CRIME[/url]

He then squashed the investigation into it, replacing everyone on it
[url="http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/04/14/texas.arson.review/index.html"]http://www.cnn.com/2...view/index.html[/url]

after raising 11 million dollars from oil and gas companies, he then said that climate scientists are lying to increase their cashflow.

sounds like an amesome guy


also, lol
[img]http://i.imgur.com/UTcMz.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/4iiK5.jpg[/img]

Edited August 18, 2011 by Jesus_lol

[dairygirl4u2c]

i got an A in economics.... a graduate class too
make me president

[Maggyie]

I am not really eager to vote for ANOTHER Governor of Texas when the last one didn't work out so well. It's not fair but it's true. Also I'm pretty sure he's in politics just because he has so much hair. The hair would be wasted in a field like accounting.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1313642489' post='2290420']
[img]http://i.imgur.com/UTcMz.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
I wonder how many of those children (or their parents, rather) are citizens of the United States...

[Lil Red]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1313704068' post='2290837']
I wonder how many of those children (or their parents, rather) are citizens of the United States...[/quote]
Does that matter, as a Catholic?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1313704427' post='2290845']
Does that matter, as a Catholic?
[/quote]
As a Catholic, no. For the purposes of identifying whether the ruler of a (semi-)sovereign territory is competent, yes.

Edited August 18, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS

[Lil Red]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1313704773' post='2290852']
As a Catholic, no. For the purposes of identifying whether the ruler of a (semi-)sovereign territory is competent, yes.[/quote]
I think I understand your meaning.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1313533654' post='2289391']
i'd like to know your thoughts on this blogpost i shared on my facebook page. Don John commented on it, with some good Texas perspective, but let me know what you think.
[url="http://redcardigan.blogspot.com/2011/08/not-tempted-to-break-my-pledge.html"]http://redcardigan.b...-my-pledge.html[/url]
[/quote]
I've only lived in Texas a few years; Don Jon probably has a better Texan perspective than myself. Everybody here beeshes about Perry, but somehow he manages to keep winning elections. He seems like a mixed bag - he's definitely a politician (someone described him as "a politician's politician") and it's obvious he knows his politicking, but I don't think he's any worse than most of the other politicians running for office. He's definitely preferable to Obama, though that's not saying much at all.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1313518373' post='2289234']

Why did he cut money from public education and why is he bad for doing that? From what I understand most public education systems are over saturated with money and under performing - they simply don't work. If I give you money to do something and you don't do it, I'll probably take the money away from you. Or was there just no money in the budget and he was being fiscally conservative and not spending what he didn't have. As a Catholic I am not a fan of public education which exists for the state to make citizens of the state. I think of it as an absolute last case scenario when a family cannot home school or send their children to private school.
[/quote]
I agree.

A hundred years ago, we spent much, much less on public education, yet American students then learned far more than they do today in most schools. Most high school students then read and studied great literature and ideas which are beyond the level of many of today's college graduates. Many public high schools are infamous for churning out functional illiterates with diplomas.

Over the decades, we've kept spending more and more on the public school system with less and less to show for it.

The entire system is bloated and in need of serious overall and trimming.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' timestamp='1313622955' post='2290166']
I still think that public advocacy of secession is incompatible with trying to say that you want to the leader of a union, but that's my perspective, and we can agree to disagree on that point. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter what Perry says. He wants to restore power to the states? Nice idea. However, when you hand the keys of the castle over to someone, their first act is rarely going to be knocking down the gate and covering the moat...the whole "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" concept. Government has a way of making Machiavellians out of otherwise decent people.
[/quote]
Don John covered this pretty well, but the being a President who believes in the rights of the individual states to peaceably secede from the union is no more incompatible with being its leader than being the leader of a club who believes its members have the right to leave the club if they so choose.

The Constitution nowhere gives the federal government the power to forcibly prevent states from seceding if they choose to do so. Belief in the right of states to secede has a long and venerable history in this country going back long before the War Between the States, and it's probably many of our early presidents - I'd say certainly Jefferson - would support the principle of states peaceably seceding in the event that the federal government become tyrannical.
Concern with limiting the power of the federal government and keeping it from becoming too powerful or tyrannical was an over-riding theme of the writings of the founding fathers.

After all, the US had recently won independence from Britain over precisely such issues.

Governor Perry was simply stating his agreement with this principle, and saying that Texas has the right to secede should the governance of the Union become unduly oppressive. I am in full agreement with this principle, whether Perry actually meant it sincerely or not.

If Perry meant what he said, at least if a Perry presidency became unbearably tyrannical and destructive (as many on here apparently fear), at least he would allow those suffering from his horrific "conservative economic policies" to break off peacefully, rather than wage one of history's most bloody wars to force them into submission, as a certain President of the 1860s did.

As for the "power corrupts" arguments, I fail to see how they apply more to Perry than any other politician running for President, including Obama himself.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1313562441' post='2289773']

He stands with the Church on the 5 non negotiables.
[/quote]
Don't be such a square-pantaloons.

Everyone knows that in these enlightened times, the only thing that matters is to vote for the guy who supports the government spending the most money.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1313642489' post='2290420']
[img]http://i.imgur.com/4iiK5.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

I am not a going to campaign or try to push Perry but this seems stupid to me and is an ad hominem attack. One, to think that economics can be understood well after taking a class in college is the pretense of knowledge. The economy is organic in that it is made up of everyone and takes alot more studying to understand than one or two college classes will cover. Two, the president has advisors to help him make economic decisions for this reason. Three, much of what a President does does not actually influence the economy. The fed sets interest rates and the House of Representatives introduce taxes or tax breaks. The President may want them to do certain things but ultimately it is up to those individuals. Four, it may be fun to make fun of Perry but let's not pretend that "The Great Recession" ended in 2009. It is still going on and the economy is double dipping. Also, as far as President Obama helping the economy; many economists could have done a better job. President Obama, who was trying to implement Keynesian policies, has been criticized for not actually following Keynesianism but rather using the theory as an excuse to hand out money (we didn't have) to companies that were failing. He followed Keynesianism ineffectively and badly. Say what you want about Keynesianism, right or wrong, if one is going to follow it then follow it! Don't give bailouts and pretend you are helping the economy. Rather scrap the whole government's fleet of cars and buy new ones. This will cause the auto-makers to have to buy steel, employ workers, buy rubber, and computer parts for the cars. The money the government spends will directly be passed on to steel manufacturers, auto-industry workers, and tire manufacturers. Also, the profits the car companies make can go to paying off their bills. Don't just give them money so they can pay off their bills from banks and such. No employee will ever have that money passed on to them and it won't get people spending. Instead, it will just continue a liquidity trap by tying more money up in the banks. People will continue to save and not put money in circulation through spending and thus there will be no growth. Or another idea is to let the companies fail, restructure their deals with the unions, and reform as healthier businesses. One can ensure the companies reform by reducing taxes in the industry for newly formed companies and changing laws to make it easier for them to reform. Pick one and follow it. Don't pretend to do one and instead just give away money. I hate politicians. BAH!!!! /rant

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1313707202' post='2290896']
Don John covered this pretty well, but the being a President who believes in the rights of the individual states to peaceably secede from the union is no more incompatible with being its leader than being the leader of a club who believes its members have the right to leave the club if they so choose.

The Constitution nowhere gives the federal government the power to forcibly prevent states from seceding if they choose to do so. Belief in the right of states to secede has a long and venerable history in this country going back long before the War Between the States, and it's probably many of our early presidents - I'd say certainly Jefferson - would support the principle of states peaceably seceding in the event that the federal government become tyrannical.
Concern with limiting the power of the federal government and keeping it from becoming too powerful or tyrannical was an over-riding theme of the writings of the founding fathers.

After all, the US had recently won independence from Britain over precisely such issues.

Governor Perry was simply stating his agreement with this principle, and saying that Texas has the right to secede should the governance of the Union become unduly oppressive. I am in full agreement with this principle, whether Perry actually meant it sincerely or not.

If Perry meant what he said, at least if a Perry presidency became unbearably tyrannical and destructive (as many on here apparently fear), at least he would allow those suffering from his horrific "conservative economic policies" to break off peacefully, rather than wage one of history's most bloody wars to force them into submission, as a certain President of the 1860s did.[/quote]

OK, I can concede that point. For the record, though, I never stated any opposition to secession as a philosophical stance. It's a perfectly legitimate option and well within the purview of the people of Texas (or any state) to choose that option, if circumstances warrant. My point was that the appearance of a candidate for office advocating a position that seemed to run counter to the point of that office made for bad public relations. However, I can agree that there are merits to the bigger argument in terms of the presentation of the idea as a possibility.

[quote]As for the "power corrupts" arguments, I fail to see how they apply more to Perry than any other politician running for President, including Obama himself.
[/quote]

That was my entire point. Perry is just one more pop-up in a giant political game of whack-a-mole. You could throw a dart, hit one, and get pretty much the same result from any of them. They just have different routes to the same end. Eventually the lure of power will be one too potent for the vast majority of candidates for that office to withstand. That had nothing to do with Perry specifically at all.