Female Altar Servers And Vocations

[MargaretTeresa]

Addressing the sanctuary topic: Our sanctuary "officially" (according to the online tour doo-dah) includes the altar, celebrant's chair, great crucifix, tabernacle and ambo.

I guess, then, whenever I go up to do the readings (ahem, whatever the first is and the respondsorary Psalm) for daily Mass, I am technically in the sanctuary. While, according to Fr Z's poll terms, I shouldn't be up there, I am in no way doing anything other than reading. I am not handing Fr J the stuff off the side table (wine, host, etc). Unless Deacon T is there, he does that all by himself during daily and has altar boys who help at the Sunday masses.

I dunno if any of those who fill that role are discerning - privately or with spiritual direction.

I do know this: we have female readers. We have a women's prayer circle. We have women's Rosary. It's mostly women who bring in pyx and take the Eucharist to the sick. The men/boys have a prayer coffee thing, the Knights of Columbus, and the boys have altar service.

I haven't heard any complaints.

[Aloysius]

the ministerial priesthood is, by design, a masculine institution. within the liturgy the priest symbolizes Christ to the people.
acolytes are extensions of the ministerial priesthood, also masculine, extensions of the alter-Christus, they join the priest in representing Christ to the people.
lay people who replace acolytes are still standing in for that role, the role that is an extension of the ministerial priesthood.

it's not about whether we have a million vocations to the priesthood or just one, it's not about statistics, it's not about marketing. the fact remains that this liturgical symbolism is ruptured when it is made a "lay" job. yes, altar boys are laity, but when they dress in the cassock they are becoming apprentices to the clergy, they are stepping up and, for a moment, becoming little mini clergy (listen to the Arinze video posted above, this is what the Italians call them). for that liturgy in that moment, they are standing in as acolytes, minor clerics, and becoming extensions of the ministerial priesthood.

if the ministerial priesthood is masculine, these extensions IMO must also be masculine. the whole mindset of having altar girls has made altar service into something which is part of the "laity". if the only way to return to the proper liturgical symbolism is to disallow any member of the laity from performing these roles, and only allowing permanently instituted Acolytes do it, then so be it. that's an impractical solution, but it's the only other possible solution to maintaining the symbolism of the ministerial priesthood in the roles of altar servers.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Aloysius

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1314743154' post='2297642']
And if there are so few boys at all in your parish, period, I think that in itself shows there are bigger problems in your parish.
[/quote]

This is a good lead-in to something nobody has brought up yet: the declining enrollment in Catholic schools. When I was growing up (before the "altar girl" trend started), the source of altar boys was the Catholic school; I know of none that were from public school but attended CCD. However, my eight grade class alone was almost half the size of the entire parish school in the parish in which I now reside, and one of the constant questions is whether our enrollment will drop to a level where teh Archdiocese will close our school.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1314655614' post='2297087']

In another thread ...
[/quote]

Too late. The [font=tahoma, geneva, sans-serif]f[size=4]a[/size]rt[/font] is airborne.

Besides, part of the purpose of this thread is vocations, so let's be correct about what we're talking about.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Norseman82

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1314749016' post='2297714']

This is a good lead-in to something nobody has brought up yet: the declining enrollment in Catholic schools. When I was growing up (before the "altar girl" trend started), the source of altar boys was the Catholic school; I know of none that were from public school but attended CCD. However, my eight grade class alone was almost half the size of the entire parish school in the parish in which I now reside, and one of the constant questions is whether our enrollment will drop to a level where teh Archdiocese will close our school.
[/quote]

Our school closed in the 1980s. The reason? The Irish Catholics who had sent their kids to the school moved far away to the suburbs. There are very few people who live in the neighborhood now who went to the school at all. It's sad. But Catholic school in the 1980s for the impoverished in our neighborhood was out of their money range.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1314746330' post='2297670']
it seems no point that I have made has been replied to by those who support the practice of female altar servers. such is life. it's not about the role of women, it's about the role of the laity. it's not about the benefits to those who serve at the altar, those things are secondary; the altar server should serve the liturgy, the liturgy shouldn't serve the altar server.

"the Church" doesn't "allow it", individual dioceses are permitted to allow it. The Pope does not allow it in the diocese of Rome. it's a novel experimental practice. disallowing it would have no impact on whether women can lead talks or retreats or anything of the sort. it just isn't relevant. here's a great quote from an artical posted earlier:

[/color]
[/left][left][color=#000000]one might call what forms among altar boys an "all boys' club" with some sort of negative connotation; but I would see it as more of a fraternity. fraternal fellowship is something sorely lacking in the Church and in society at large nowadays, because any attempt at some sort of all male group is attacked as an "all boys' club". are the Knight's of Columbus an "all boys' club" that need to let women in? why can't we have a few all boys' clubs; there should also be some all girls' clubs.[/color]


[/quote]

I understand the role of the laity.

In the perfect world, I guess I never would have been an altar server, because there'd be a ton of priests.

But there's not. We could debate the reasons for that all day, and quite frankly, I think it has a variety of causes.

So. Until there are enough priests to cover all the bases, women will continue to have a big role in the church. and that is not a bad thing at all.

[/left]

[Aloysius]

the role of women in the Church isn't the issue. I'm not attacking parish councils or pastoral associates or retreat leaders. it's all about the liturgy for me; and the things that are extensions of the ministerial priesthood in the liturgy ought to be preserved in the liturgical symbolism of the ministerial priesthood.

we wouldn't need more priests, we would need more acolytes. since the minor orders on the way to the priesthood were suppressed by Pope Paul VI, it's easier than ever to create a program to make acolytes. you just have to be a 25 year old male Catholic in good standing, bishops could very easily create very easy programs to form Acolytes. there aren't any celibacy restrictions or anything; not even like there is with the diaconate (cause once you're ordained a deacon you cannot marry, though you can be already married when ordained a deacon; an acolyte would be free to marry while they were an acolyte) I prefer the tradition of apprenticeship, of young men temporarily assuming the role of a mini-cleric to preserve that symbolism in the liturgy. those are the two options that make altar service a non-lay activity as it is properly supposed to be, though.

I'd like to reiterate as well that I'm not attacking those who have served as altar servers. I have made very clear from my first posts in this thread that I am sure those who served as altar girls received many graces and I am sure some have had that as a nice stepping stone along their journey in life. being close to our Eucharistic Lord is always a good thing for someone. but one is no "closer" to Him on the altar than in the pews, His presence in the Eucharist is much more powerful than that; all who attend mass in all their roles are pretty much equi-distant from Him there.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Aloysius

[Socrates]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1314744712' post='2297654']

I'm stepping out of the conversation and the thread because of how strongly I feel about it.

I realize that there are a whole lot of people on PhatMass who are very traditional ... I am not (I'm not very liberal either).

MissyP said it best -- there is a risk of the "I'm better than you" all boy's club forming.
[/quote]
I think that hypothetical "risk" is an extremely poor reason for disregarding centuries of tradition (and for failing to heed the Church's continuing teaching that males are to be preferred for this role.)

At the parishes (and Catholic college) I've attended with only male altar servers I've never seen a "I'm better than you" all boy's club form (unless you take the attitude that the exclusion of girls from the sanctuary in itself constitutes a "I'm better than you all boys club.") I've spent much of my young years as an altar boy and as a lector/acolyte at places where girls were not allowed to perform these functions, and it did not go to my head, or somehow cause me to look down on girls or women. It was simply a different role.

And I've never seen other altar servers acting as snots about it towards women, either - that would just be ridiculous.

At these more traditional parishes without female altar servers, there are plenty of women (roughly the same number of women as men), and they do not appear resentful or alienated, and are quite active in parish life. But there also generally is not the lack of men common in in many more "liberal" parishes. And there are both male and female vocations.

I'm really not seeing the big problem, which seems largely to be in people's heads. Most of the arguments for altar girls I've seen here seem petty and based in envy and gender politics. I've certainly seen no compelling case for overturning the Church's norms and traditions.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Socrates

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1314750591' post='2297748']

And I've never seen other altar servers acting as snots about it towards women, either - that would just be ridiculous.

[/quote]
I have.

And I agree, it is ridiculous.

[vee]

[b]Q. 946. How should we assist at Mass?[/b]
A. We should assist at Mass with great interior recollection and piety and with every outward mark of respect and devotion.
[b]Q. 947. Which is the best manner of hearing Mass?[/b]
A. The best manner of hearing Mass is to offer it to God with the priest for the same purpose for which it is said, to meditate on Christ's sufferings and death, and to go to Holy Communion.

[vee]

[b]Q. 917. What is the Mass?[/b]
A. The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ.

[b]Q. 920. Is the Mass the same sacrifice as that of the Cross?[/b]
A. The Mass is the same sacrifice as that of the Cross.
[b]Q. 921. How is the Mass the same sacrifice as that of the Cross?[/b]
A. The Mass is the same sacrifice as that of the Cross because the offering and the priest are the same -- Christ our Blessed Lord; and the ends for which the sacrifice of the Mass is offered are the same as those of the sacrifice of the Cross.

[Aloysius]

what if we had altar girls who wore mantillas?

[vee]

[dominicansoul]

...the Liturgy is not the place for gender politics


i am a strong believer that embracing tradition would not be a "step backward" for the Church ...


...and I believe women have always had a "role" in the Church since the time of Jesus...


i'm a woman, and on top of all the modern arguments of women's roles in the Catholic Church today, I have to say that I've never felt the least bit ignored or suppressed by Jesus Christ when I receive Him in the Eucharist... i don't have to be up on the altar, filling in some role to feel my womanhood is important in the Catholic Church... I'm happy taking my place in the pews ... (or behind the organ, where I for the most time, have always been...)

if women take advantage of the permission to serve in such capacities, I hope they do it out of a genuine love to serve the Church, and not just to fulfill some need to prove that "woman can do it just as well as a man can--- so take that!"

Edited August 31, 2011 by dominicansoul

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1314751876' post='2297772']
if women take advantage of the permission to serve in such capacities, I hope they do it out of a genuine love to serve the Church, and not just to fulfill some need to prove that "woman can do it just as well as a man can--- so take that!"
[/quote]
i'm going to try this again. the first time, i got too frustrated trying to type up my response.

i think most women do feel this way, that they are doing this out of love to serve the Church. i guess what i'm hearing is an attitude of 'well, even though you [i]think[/i] you are doing this out of love for the Church, in reality, you are doing it out of a deep-seated need to show you're better than men.' or an attitude of 'well, yes, you may be doing this out of love to serve the Church, but what the Church says invalidates your experience, and you don't truly need to be there at all. even though you have a particular love of doing something, you aren't allowed, so you must do something else, even if you don't particularly love it. or just sit in the pew and shut up and take it.'

so a woman is a sacristan, or a reader...and really loves serving the Church in this manner. Aloysius is (I think, I'm trying not to muddle up here) saying that an all-male sanctuary, which in some churches does include the ambo, is part of the 'liturgical symbolism to the ministerial priesthood'. okay. so are those women supposed to feel automatically happy? Sorry, no. I would feel incredibly sad and upset, [b]which does not preclude accepting it because the Church mandates it[/b] (though, guess what, it's not a universal norm of the Church, regardless if the Pope has a set of rules for the diocese of Rome, he hasn't mandated it as a universal norm). i'm thinking, in particular, of a lovely friend of mine, who reads a reading at Sunday Mass on a regular basis. Yes, she is good at it. Yes, she has a love of doing it, because she is serving the Church. Yes, she is a faithful Catholic (very faithful). Yes, she would be incredibly hurt to be told that because an all-male sanctuary is part of the 'liturgical symbolism to the ministerial priesthood', she can no longer read at Sunday Mass. No, it wouldn't drive her away from the Church. But when you have a gift (and I consider reading the Scriptures well a gift from God), and told you cannot use that gift, it would be hurtful.

i doubt i am explaining myself correctly, though, so i will probably still get flack for yes, considering someone's [i]feelings[/i] (how liberal of me!) and how changes might effect someone & their faith life. oh well. sigh. i just re-read this and i feel i did an awful job of explaining how i feel.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Lil Red

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1314751876' post='2297772']if women take advantage of the permission to serve in such capacities, I hope they do it out of a genuine love to serve the Church, and not just to fulfill some need to prove that "woman can do it just as well as a man can--- so take that!"[/quote]

i just have to add that, do you really think that most of the women who serve as readers or sacristans or extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist really are fulfilling a need of proving that women can do it too? in my experience, out of girl altar servers, women emEs, women sacristans, and women readers - ONE of those women was an ultra-liberal, 'stick it to the man' type. ONE. out of maybe a hundred. no, these women love God, love the Church and their local parish and want to serve out of that love. Not a need to be doing something that equals 'active participation' (don't get me started on that phrase), not a need to 'stick it to the man'. Out of love.

[dominicansoul]

no, i'm not anti-woman, i'm anti-gender politicking and using the Holy Mass as a battleground...


i can believe now a days that women fill those roles with all their hearts, too. but at the beginning? iono.. not in my parish... it was all about "sticking it to the man" because they were doing it loooong before they even had permission...

if everybody just obeyed, that would be great!!!

[vee]

As a former altar girl my opinion is let the guys have it. We need good and holy male priests and if we can get guys interested by example and serving at a young age then yay!!! Without good and holy male priests who act in persona Christi the Church is a mess with only two sacraments. The devil knows the value of the priesthood and he will try to attack it in every way. Im happy to be in the pew and serve in the way the Baltimore Catechism describes in what I excerpted above.

[MissScripture]

I don't generally notice an attitude of "sticking it to the man" though, I'm sure that there are women out there who ARE taking on certain roles because of such an attitude. The attitude I have noticed, both in males and females, is one of self-importance by doing things. I don't think it's necessarily an intentional attitude, and I think it starts as genuinely wanting to help and be involved. But through poor catechesis, people come to think they are vital to the Mass and that they have a RIGHT to do these things, when they're not and they don't. Not to sound harsh, but really, the only person necessary for Mass to happen is the priest. And I think until the majority of people realize that, they're will be issues with things like altar servers and EMHC, because people see them just as a job to be completed.

[Aloysius]

I don't think anyone is an altar girl in order to "stick it to the man" as it were; some people hold an opinion about altar girls which is based in gender politicking, but the actual altar girls themselves definitely don't do it out of that. they do it because their parents want them to, or because they want to, and when they do it it either brings them closer to the Lord, or it bores them and they twiddle with the rope sashes around their albs like I used to do.

I may have been slightly misunderstood: what I intended to say is that I don't think talking about an all-male sanctuary necessarily needs to include the ambo, even when the ambo is [i]technically[/i] part of the sanctuary in the architecture of the Church. again, I cannot speak for Father Z, he may be including readers in his thought process or he may not be. from the context out of which the poll arose, I think it likely that he did not intend to refer to female lay readers at all as part of the question, I've never seen him speak against female lay readers at all, and he certainly has not done so in the context of the poll he made, so the poll question may have simply been overly broad in its scope unintentionally. I like the quote about how readers and EMHCs serve the people while altar servers serve the priest and are "the priest's hands" as it were. I think the Gospel itself being only read by the clergy does enough to serve the purpose of the liturgical symbolism of the laity coming to receive the word of God from the representative of Christ, and lay people reading the epistles and old testament parts to other lay people is not a problem.

when it comes to altar girls, it seems this parish did it pretty awesomely: http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/boys_will_be_altar_boys/ . the cat was out of the bag, so instead of just banning it outright, they phased them out. cudos to Fr Pokorsky on the way that seems to have been handled. I'm not saying that those who make use of the allowance have done anything wrong, I am sure they have served quite well and have gotten a lot out of it. the fact that it was allowed is what unravelled this point of liturgical symbolism, and it would've been unravelled whether or not they individually chose to do it. I'm sure they swung their incense well (if it was used in their parish), I'm sure they brought the wine to the altar well, poured the water over the priest's hands well, and did a good job doing all those things that an acolyte would properly do. I don't begrudge them the job they did, or the service they provided; I begrudge the lack of the Acolyte before the eyes of the people, the lack of the mini cleric apprentice that stood in as the same symbol.