Female Altar Servers And Vocations

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1314760322' post='2297893']
I don't generally notice an attitude of "sticking it to the man" though, I'm sure that there are women out there who ARE taking on certain roles because of such an attitude. The attitude I have noticed, both in males and females, is one of self-importance by doing things. I don't think it's necessarily an intentional attitude, and I think it starts as genuinely wanting to help and be involved. But through poor catechesis, people come to think they are vital to the Mass and that they have a RIGHT to do these things, when they're not and they don't. Not to sound harsh, but really, the only person necessary for Mass to happen is the priest. And I think until the majority of people realize that, they're will be issues with things like altar servers and EMHC, because people see them just as a job to be completed.
[/quote]
This is exactly how I felt when asked to be an EMHC. I'd been unsure about EMHCs in general, but when I was asked to be one, well, I felt rather important and it was nice to do something. I later stopped doing it when I realised that. It wasn't intentionally prideful or self-important, and I don't think anyone I've met has had that attitude about it. Rather, I think it can be a misplaced sense of service, if that makes sense, or a misunderstanding of active participation in the liturgy. I absolutely do not ascribe false motives to anyone fulfilling these positions, nor do I think badly of anyone who is serving in this way or who has been spiritually benefited from that service.

[Papist]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1314744021' post='2297645']
Did most of the problems with not being able to find boys willing to serve at the altar being before or after "altar girls" started becoming the norm in many parishes. In the parish I belonged to which was in a diocese that did not allow altar girls, there was never any problem finding boys to serve.
The problem seems to usually occur after altar girls become common, and this tends to make boys see the job as "girly" and be less likely to have interest.

From what I understand, the practice of altar girls (which was in defiance of the rules of the Church) came about not from a dire shortage of boys willing to serve at the altar, but from a feminist "gender equality" mindset - the whole idea that little Susie should be able to do whatever little Johnny does.
[/quote]
It's standard that if you want boys to stop doing something, make it a girl thing.

[Papist]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1314759886' post='2297887']
As a former altar girl my opinion is let the guys have it. We need good and holy male priests and if we can get guys interested by example and serving at a young age then yay!!! Without good and holy male priests who act in persona Christi the Church is a mess with only two sacraments. The devil knows the value of the priesthood and he will try to attack it in every way. Im happy to be in the pew and serve in the way the Baltimore Catechism describes in what I excerpted above.
[/quote]
Yep! Without the priesthood, we would not have the Eucharist.

[Lisa]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1314774963' post='2297969']

when it comes to altar girls, it seems this parish did it pretty awesomely: [url="http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/boys_will_be_altar_boys/"]http://www.ncregiste..._be_altar_boys/[/url] . the cat was out of the bag, so instead of just banning it outright, they phased them out. cudos to Fr Pokorsky on the way that seems to have been handled. I'm not saying that those who make use of the allowance have done anything wrong, I am sure they have served quite well and have gotten a lot out of it. the fact that it was allowed is what unravelled this point of liturgical symbolism, and it would've been unravelled whether or not they individually chose to do it. I'm sure they swung their incense well (if it was used in their parish), I'm sure they brought the wine to the altar well, poured the water over the priest's hands well, and did a good job doing all those things that an acolyte would properly do. I don't begrudge them the job they did, or the service they provided; I begrudge the lack of the Acolyte before the eyes of the people, the lack of the mini cleric apprentice that stood in as the same symbol.
[/quote]

I wanted to re-quote this. Also, read the link he provided, it's excellent. They are starting a "Helpers of Mary" ministry to give the girls a special place in the church's service- to the elderly in nursing homes.

We always talk about how Catholics truly understand masculinity and femininity; even when the world tells us it's "sexist" we get why there shouldn't be female priests- because God made us a certain way, and Jesus used his disciples in different ways.

Because we are different- inside and out- our service can look different too. I'm not advocating that women's service in the church should only be in sweeping, chipping candle drippings off the floor, and ironing the linens, but we can do a lot with our ability as women to be nurturers. I've always thought it would be good to have a mother's group that went to Mass together so that way, if a single mom/mom-who's-husband-was-away had to go out with a little one, other moms- or even single young women- could help watch the older kids. While it's not nearly as visually impressive as being an altar server and right up front, that would be so helpful to building up the church!

A parish in my diocese has a "Little Flowers" group, that serves as readers, brings up the gifts, and helps in other ways. I was an altar server when I was younger and loved it, but now am beginning to see that there are gifts I can give. This is in no way disparaging the whole-hearted and humble service provide by many of the female altar servers here, just some thoughts.

[Basilisa Marie]

I think it's kind of terrible that we let boys believe that something "girly" is bad, and not just what girls do. I'm not saying that all boys should do girl things and vice versa, but implicitly letting them get away with believing that girly things are bad (and not just simply things girls do) just adds fuel to the "icky feminist" fire.

[quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1314798732' post='2298026']

I wanted to re-quote this. Also, read the link he provided, it's excellent. They are starting a "Helpers of Mary" ministry to give the girls a special place in the church's service- to the elderly in nursing homes.

We always talk about how Catholics truly understand masculinity and femininity; even when the world tells us it's "sexist" we get why there shouldn't be female priests- because God made us a certain way, and Jesus used his disciples in different ways.

Because we are different- inside and out- our service can look different too. I'm not advocating that women's service in the church should only be in sweeping, chipping candle drippings off the floor, and ironing the linens, but we can do a lot with our ability as women to be nurturers. I've always thought it would be good to have a mother's group that went to Mass together so that way, if a single mom/mom-who's-husband-was-away had to go out with a little one, other moms- or even single young women- could help watch the older kids. While it's not nearly as visually impressive as being an altar server and right up front, that would be so helpful to building up the church!

A parish in my diocese has a "Little Flowers" group, that serves as readers, brings up the gifts, and helps in other ways. I was an altar server when I was younger and loved it, but now am beginning to see that there are gifts I can give. This is in no way disparaging the whole-hearted and humble service provide by many of the female altar servers here, just some thoughts.
[/quote]

I really think this is the best way to help "solve" the problem people have with not letting girls altar serve - have some kind of group only for the girls that can do some kind of service during the Mass, while also doing other things outside of mass. Bringing up the gifts, reading, ushering, anything like that. I think what it sometimes comes down to is that girls (and often just their parents) somehow hear the message that "You're not as important as the boys." Regardless of how untrue and ridiculous that can sound, having [i]some [/i]kind of special club for the girls that might also participate in some kind of service during mass can send the message of "yes, we value you too, but girls and boys are different." Practically, it would ease a whole lot of complaints about having altar boys.

[Aloysius]

it's not so much that they think a "girly" thing is bad, they just sense that a "girly" thing is not a "boy" thing and don't want to participate in it. there's nothing wrong with boys not wanting to do "girly" things, it is absolutely natural for them not to want to do things that they perceive as girly.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/protests-of-va-parishs-move-away-from-altar-girls-reflects-wider-catholic-debate/2011/11/17/gIQAnbRLcN_story.html?wprss=

another article about female altar servers.

[CatherineM]

We didn't have female servers. The girls were trained as sacristans. I don't know why they don't do that as much anymore.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1321825816' post='2338618']
We didn't have female servers. The girls were trained as sacristans. I don't know why they don't do that as much anymore.
[/quote]

That's a wonderful ministry! It would be a good alternative to female altar servers, as it's not dusting or arranging flowers!

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1321820558' post='2338595']
[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/protests-of-va-parishs-move-away-from-altar-girls-reflects-wider-catholic-debate/2011/11/17/gIQAnbRLcN_story.html?wprss="]http://www.washingto...ory.html?wprss=[/url]

another article about female altar servers.
[/quote]
It was sad to see some of the attitudes in that article - attitudes of thinking such a move was "going after [the] girls" and that it meant they weren't wanted. I know such a transition must be difficult for any parish, but it's sad to see it being viewed in that light. I agree with Catherine that it would be great if the girls were instead trained as sacristans when they make such moves.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1321826485' post='2338623']
It was sad to see some of the attitudes in that article - attitudes of thinking such a move was "going after [the] girls" and that it meant they weren't wanted. I know such a transition must be difficult for any parish, but it's sad to see it being viewed in that light. I agree with Catherine that it would be great if the girls were instead trained as sacristans when they make such moves.
[/quote]
I honestly don't know that it would appease those who are most opposed to it, though. I just got the feeling from the comments in the article that even if that were the case, it would still not be good enough, because it isn't just like the boys. After all, even with the girls who were allowed to keep serving, the mother was upset that her daughter couldn't wear the same garments. I mean, I do think they should do something for girls, I just don't know that it would make a difference to the people who are most opposed to all male altar servers.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1321830722' post='2338637']
I honestly don't know that it would appease those who are most opposed to it, though. I just got the feeling from the comments in the article that even if that were the case, it would still not be good enough, because it isn't just like the boys. After all, even with the girls who were allowed to keep serving, the mother was upset that her daughter couldn't wear the same garments. I mean, I do think they should do something for girls, I just don't know that it would make a difference to the people who are most opposed to all male altar servers.
[/quote]
That would be the Annie Oakley School of Feminist Thought.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJvPjelxxj0[/media]

[dominicansoul]

it would be great if people received the liturgy as the Church proposes, instead of changing it to their own personal inclinations or ideas...


...we humans are a stubborn bunch filled with hardness of heart...

[vee]

because its all about me and what I want

[dominicansoul]

i had a conversation outside the church today... one of the men on the pastoral council was chiding Father for asking for an all-marble altar/sanctuary..

"Father, you know this is just a small-neighborhood church serving a small number of families, right?"


I turned to the gentleman, and very nicely said, "The sanctuary is not for families...it is for the Almighty God..."


I think that is something millions of Catholics have forgotten in the wake of Vatican II... the Liturgy was never ours to change, to add to, to throw in our own worldly concepts of gender- equality, to push our own agendas, etc. etc. etc.

The Liturgy, the Mass, the architecture.. all of it.. belong to God... and it is a [i]privilege[/i] for any of us to be able to serve at Mass, and not a "right."

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1321834465' post='2338673']
i had a conversation outside the church today... one of the men on the pastoral council was chiding Father for asking for an all-marble altar/sanctuary..
[/quote]

I wonder if the church had originally had marble altars...many down here (and even in my home church area) originally did, but then many of the beautiful altars were done away with after all of the changes. We still had a largely marble sanctuary, just with another altar that faced the congregation. And somehow they managed to move paintings from one end of the church to the other!

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1321830722' post='2338637']
I honestly don't know that it would appease those who are most opposed to it, though. I just got the feeling from the comments in the article that even if that were the case, it would still not be good enough, because it isn't just like the boys. After all, even with the girls who were allowed to keep serving, the mother was upset that her daughter couldn't wear the same garments. I mean, I do think they should do something for girls, I just don't know that it would make a difference to the people who are most opposed to all male altar servers.
[/quote]
I imagine you're right. It's a skewed understanding of equality, one to which I subscribed when younger, unfortunately.
[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1321834465' post='2338673']
i had a conversation outside the church today... one of the men on the pastoral council was chiding Father for asking for an all-marble altar/sanctuary..

"Father, you know this is just a small-neighborhood church serving a small number of families, right?"


I turned to the gentleman, and very nicely said, "The sanctuary is not for families...it is for the Almighty God..."


I think that is something millions of Catholics have forgotten in the wake of Vatican II... the Liturgy was never ours to change, to add to, to throw in our own worldly concepts of gender- equality, to push our own agendas, etc. etc. etc.

The Liturgy, the Mass, the architecture.. all of it.. belong to God... and it is a [i]privilege[/i] for any of us to be able to serve at Mass, and not a "right."
[/quote]
Yes, we should remember that.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1321836998' post='2338695']
I imagine you're right. It's a skewed understanding of equality, one to which I subscribed when younger, unfortunately.

Yes, we should remember that.
[/quote]
I understand why they think that way, because it's how most of our culture thinks. But it's really kind of sad.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1321825816' post='2338618']
We didn't have female servers. The girls were trained as sacristans. I don't know why they don't do that as much anymore.
[/quote]

I love this.

[i<3franciscans]

I always looked at it like alter servers were guys that were thinking of the priesthood. I don't have a problem with girl alter servers so to speak, but I have no intention of being one. I am perfectly content to stay were I am. I never felt like I belonged serving on the alter... to me it always seemed like it should be a place reserved for men.