Is The Old Testement Really Gods Word ?

[arfink]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1316980376' post='2309944']
Ok razzle dazzle. It makes no sense to me how Jesus can be so different from the old testament to the new testament. Unless 1.) People were representing Him wrong in the old testament or not representing him all the way acurately. 2.) Jesus the Son and God the Father are different in some areas and ways of thinking. 3.) Jesus when He was here on earth had a a more peacefull attitude then when He was not here in the old testament.
[/quote]

Jesus is not mentioned by name in the OT. God is just God, since the OT was basically all put together before Jesus came along. Remember, Jesus was a man as well as God- he lived inside of time when he came here. Things definitely changed when He came here. Now, while God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same God, we don't call them three persons for no reason- they are indeed distinct.

Also, you may notice, in the New Testament, Jesus isn't all peaceful either. He repeatedly calls out the Jewish leaders and calls them hypocrites and that really insults them. He made himself a whip and beat the money changers out of the temple and threw their tables over. He said he had come "to bring the sword." Jesus brought great upheaval and unrest to the Jewish world, and his apostles did the same to the rest of the world. The Gospel has this habit of displacing other (false) religions and cultures with the Kingdom of God, both in individuals and in the greater community. That's kinda the basic mission of the Church Militant.

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1316980558' post='2309948']
Ok but I'm wondering more about Gods actions in the o.t. They are not compatible with the actions of Jesus in the new testament. They are night and day. They seem to be complete opposite.
[/quote]

Many of the prescriptions of the Old Law were not dictated, but inspired. That means that God didn't come down and say "For the book of Numbers you will write exactly this." We say the authors were inspired by God, not that the books were dictated. The Jewish leaders were, of course, the product of their day, and their mentality is clearly reflected in the way they did things. If you understand how Judaism worked then, you'd understand why they did things like commit genocide against the nations who were occupying the land God was giving them. Their governance and faith were integrally tied with the bloodline and being "God's people" was inherited by blood through the tribes. Sure, you could accept circumcision and join a tribe and live like a second class citizen, but ultimately it all came down to actual bloodline descent from the patriarchs. The pagans were not of Jewish blood and were not going to convert, so they would have to be displaced in order to keep the integrity of faith for the people.

In the NT when Jesus is questioned about the rules for divorce, he say it's not allowed and that divorcing a woman is basically adultery. But he says that Moses allowed divorce out of the hardness of their hearts. I suspect that, if you'll excuse me for saying it so bluntly, God chose to work with what He had- a people who were in all likelihood bigoted, self-centred, and frequently disobedient, just like all of humanity. For whatever reason God chose to set up his Chosen People in their own land in a way that would have been totally typical for the time period: you want to occupy the land, you have to wipe out the people who live there already.

And yeah, God DID act differently in the OT. Salvation wasn't given to humanity right after the Garden of Eden. For whatever reason God chose to wait for the "fullness of time" to unleash salvation on the world and send his Son. God would have been totally within the bounds of justice to have wiped the entire human race off the earth in the flood instead of saving some people. He could have said "Alright, that's it humans. You blew it, you're done. Time to burn." He never gave Satan a second chance that we know of.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yes, if it seems like God spends a good deal more time smiting peeps in the OT, you're basically right. It's written about alot more. But recall that the OT is inspired writing by more or less regular Jews, who would have happily attributed victory in battle and the utter destruction of their enemies directly to the will of God. Also remember that God, for reasons that will likely remain mysterious to men until the end of time, chose to take a long time to very gradually reveal the plan of salvation.

Of course, I'm sure someone more smart than me can give a better answer, but maybe this is helpful.

[Guest]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1316983365' post='2310008']That contrast is basically the whole point of our faith. Jesus came to save sinners...to restore that broken relationship between us and God.

Regarding innocent people being hurt, raped, killed ... turn on the news one night. That still happens every day, even to Christians. Loss and suffering are part of the world we live in.

At the same time, the Old Testament is part of our Scriptures because Judaism is the foundation of our faith. We need to understand what Jesus believed, and what happened in the years leading up to His birth, in order to get the full picture of WHY Jesus came.

One leads to the other. We wouldn't need Jesus if not for everything that happened in the Old Testament, starting with Adam and Eve.[/quote]I'm talking about though God giving commands to invade and even kill young chrildren and babies. How could this come from God ? I want to believe it couldn't so therefore its untrue.

[Guest]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1316983437' post='2310009']

Jesus is not mentioned by name in the OT. God is just God, since the OT was basically all put together before Jesus came along. Remember, Jesus was a man as well as God- he lived inside of time when he came here. Things definitely changed when He came here. Now, while God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same God, we don't call them three persons for no reason- they are indeed distinct.

Also, you may notice, in the New Testament, Jesus isn't all peaceful either. He repeatedly calls out the Jewish leaders and calls them hypocrites and that really insults them. He made himself a whip and beat the money changers out of the temple and threw their tables over. He said he had come "to bring the sword." Jesus brought great upheaval and unrest to the Jewish world, and his apostles did the same to the rest of the world. The Gospel has this habit of displacing other (false) religions and cultures with the Kingdom of God, both in individuals and in the greater community. That's kinda the basic mission of the Church Militant.



Many of the prescriptions of the Old Law were not dictated, but inspired. That means that God didn't come down and say "For the book of Numbers you will write exactly this." We say the authors were inspired by God, not that the books were dictated. The Jewish leaders were, of course, the product of their day, and their mentality is clearly reflected in the way they did things. If you understand how Judaism worked then, you'd understand why they did things like commit genocide against the nations who were occupying the land God was giving them. Their governance and faith were integrally tied with the bloodline and being "God's people" was inherited by blood through the tribes. Sure, you could accept circumcision and join a tribe and live like a second class citizen, but ultimately it all came down to actual bloodline descent from the patriarchs. The pagans were not of Jewish blood and were not going to convert, so they would have to be displaced in order to keep the integrity of faith for the people.

In the NT when Jesus is questioned about the rules for divorce, he say it's not allowed and that divorcing a woman is basically adultery. But he says that Moses allowed divorce out of the hardness of their hearts. I suspect that, if you'll excuse me for saying it so bluntly, God chose to work with what He had- a people who were in all likelihood bigoted, self-centred, and frequently disobedient, just like all of humanity. For whatever reason God chose to set up his Chosen People in their own land in a way that would have been totally typical for the time period: you want to occupy the land, you have to wipe out the people who live there already.

And yeah, God DID act differently in the OT. Salvation wasn't given to humanity right after the Garden of Eden. For whatever reason God chose to wait for the "fullness of time" to unleash salvation on the world and send his Son. God would have been totally within the bounds of justice to have wiped the entire human race off the earth in the flood instead of saving some people. He could have said "Alright, that's it humans. You blew it, you're done. Time to burn." He never gave Satan a second chance that we know of.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yes, if it seems like God spends a good deal more time smiting peeps in the OT, you're basically right. It's written about alot more. But recall that the OT is inspired writing by more or less regular Jews, who would have happily attributed victory in battle and the utter destruction of their enemies directly to the will of God. Also remember that God, for reasons that will likely remain mysterious to men until the end of time, chose to take a long time to very gradually reveal the plan of salvation.

Of course, I'm sure someone more smart than me can give a better answer, but maybe this is helpful.[/quote]Thank you for taking the time to write that ! It was really good. I follow what you are saying and it makes sense. Godbless. Thanks again.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1316965221' post='2309745']
Ok just looked at the links Mr. Cat provided. Looked over them briefly. I'm actually suprised mods haven't removed them. The links he provides are going to attack your faith. I only brushed over it but I'm just wondering what is the Churches teaching on the old testament ? What does it say about the stories of Moses leading armies to kill even women and babies ? And the rape ? Are we supposed to believe all these stories in the old testament ? Are we required to ? After looking at that website I can see where Mr. Cat is coming from. It doesn't change my faith in God or that He is good. But it makes me question if the Bible is 100 percent true and really if one should even read parts of it.
[/quote]
In answer to the title question: Yes.

Second, have you even read the Old Testament in its entirety? Might want to do that before you get all hot and bothered by atheist internet rabble-rousing.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1316975202' post='2309821']
I don't know this story mabey someone else could chime in. But if its in the old testament I don't think I believe it. It seems the Jewish God and the Christian God are not the same.
[/quote]

But Jesus believed it, and it was at the celebration of that event - the Passover - that He chose to institute the Eucharist.

[Guest]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1316984462' post='2310019']
In answer to the title question: Yes.

Second, have you even read the Old Testament in its entirety? Might want to do that before you get all hot and bothered by atheist internet rabble-rousing.[/quote]I read a lot of it awhile back. That website mr. Cat links though is something else.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Guest

[Guest]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1316984524' post='2310021']

But Jesus believed it, and it was at the celebration of that event - the Passover - that He chose to institute the Eucharist.[/quote] I agree.

[Guest]

So I guess where I'm at now would be that Jesus is more peacefull then God the Father. Not that it makes God the Father evil or anything like that. God the Father is perfect and just. And though Jesus and God the Father are one they are different in a lot of ways too. Very different.

[Socrates]

I'd recommend reading [url="http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/"][i]Salvation is from the Jews: the Role of Judaism in Salvation History from Abraham to the Second Comin[/i][/url]g, by Roy H. Schoeman, a Jewish convert to the Catholic Faith.

[Guest]

razzle dazzle thanks bro !

[Winchester]

No. It's lots of words, not just one.

[Basilisa Marie]

Some people previously have posted some good stuff. My biblical studies professor once told my class that a while ago some archaeologists went out to find the "real" ruins of the places in the Old Testament, like the walls of Jericho and Noah's ark and the Exodus. Know what they found? Nothing. There's virtually no evidence for anything before the kings (Saul, David, Solomon, etc), and even then what there is is so inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. Does this mean that the Old Testament isn't true or divinely inspired? No, of course not. If anything, its even more amazing what God can do with so very little. Whether or not Abraham was a real person who did all the things attributed to him or if he was fictional, the point of the story is for us to ask ourselves "what does this tell us about the truth about God and ourselves, our relationship with Him?" If anything, the Old Testament overall shows us that no matter how corrupt and fallible humanity is, God is always faithful, unconditionally. And that love is why He sent His son, Jesus.

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1316983365' post='2310008']
That contrast is basically the whole point of our faith. Jesus came to save sinners...to restore that broken relationship between us and God.

Regarding innocent people being hurt, raped, killed ... turn on the news one night. That still happens every day, even to Christians. Loss and suffering are part of the world we live in.

At the same time, the Old Testament is part of our Scriptures because Judaism is the foundation of our faith. We need to understand what Jesus believed, and what happened in the years leading up to His birth, in order to get the full picture of WHY Jesus came.

One leads to the other. We wouldn't need Jesus if not for everything that happened in the Old Testament, starting with Adam and Eve.
[/quote]

I think people's problem with the OT, though, isn't that innocent people were raped and killed, but that God supposedly ordered them to be raped and killed.


[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1317055241' post='2310466']
Some people previously have posted some good stuff. My biblical studies professor once told my class that a while ago some archaeologists went out to find the "real" ruins of the places in the Old Testament, like the walls of Jericho and Noah's ark and the Exodus. Know what they found? Nothing. There's virtually no evidence for anything before the kings (Saul, David, Solomon, etc), and even then what there is is so inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. Does this mean that the Old Testament isn't true or divinely inspired? No, of course not. If anything, its even more amazing what God can do with so very little. Whether or not Abraham was a real person who did all the things attributed to him or if he was fictional, the point of the story is for us to ask ourselves "what does this tell us about the truth about God and ourselves, our relationship with Him?" If anything, the Old Testament overall shows us that no matter how corrupt and fallible humanity is, God is always faithful, unconditionally. And that love is why He sent His son, Jesus.
[/quote]

Is it possible that God did not literally order horrible things to happen to those people? I've thought about this a lot recently. It just doesn't match up.

Edited September 27, 2011 by rizz_loves_jesus

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' timestamp='1317092773' post='2310763']

Is it possible that God did not literally order horrible things to happen to those people? I've thought about this a lot recently. It just doesn't match up.
[/quote]

I think so. But at the same time, there are very real consequences to rejecting God.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Basilisa Marie

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1317093243' post='2310764']

I think so. But at the same time, there are very real consequences to rejecting God.
[/quote]

That's what I'm thinking. I don't want to go against God or the Bible, but I do believe God is logical. Why would rape be such a heinous crime if He Himself ordered it in the OT? I've never gotten a clear answer for this.

[stevil]

[quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' timestamp='1317094102' post='2310769']

That's what I'm thinking. I don't want to go against God or the Bible, but I do believe God is logical. Why would rape be such a heinous crime if He Himself ordered it in the OT? I've never gotten a clear answer for this.
[/quote]
That would be like saying that people who rape and murder are god-like.

It's the Christian way, or it used to be the Christian way. Or maybe it was the pre-Christian way, before Christ walked the earth. But does this then mean that god's stint on earth taught god not to be horrible to people, which would mean god learnt something and changed from this experience, which is contrary to his perfect, eternal, unchanging nature as taught by Christians.

[mortify]

God kills us all in the end

[Nunsense]

There's an interesting book called, God, A Biography by Jack Miles

[url="http://www.jackmiles.com/Home/books/god-a-biography"]http://www.jackmiles.com/Home/books/god-a-biography[/url]

that looks at God through the literary perspective and uses the Old Testament to describe God's own personal journey and interaction with mankind... then he wrote a sequel about the New Testament called Christ, A Crisis in the Life of God about Jesus which I didn't find quite as good. It is all vivid imagination but a very human way of trying to understand God's motives.

Disclaimer: the book is NOT Catholic and not in line with Catholic teaching, and I do not ascribe to the theories in it, but I did find it fascinating - sort of like reading a science fiction book about this supreme creature.

[Proud2BCatholic139]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1316967405' post='2309757']
If as a catholic abortion is such an issue ( which I believe it should be) how could it be even be plausible God would instruct an army to kill even babies when they invaded ? This question needs answered. Or did mabey that command really not come from God?
[/quote]

In Judaism there is the belief in "Potential Life". Most Jews believe that life beings after the baby comes out of their mother's womb.
Just think of today. Many women and unborn children are killed during war. Is it fair to say that God has instructed the men and women in the military to kill women and unborn children? This is just something to think about.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Proud2BCatholic139

[stevil]

But don't Catholic's believe that god stopped instructing people once the last of the 12 apostles died?
For 2000 years god instructs no-one.
People just do what people do.