Evolution

[Dave]

Word!

Great job, Aloysius!

And btw, it's awesome to see you back on Phatmass!

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]Genesis
Chapter 1
1
1 In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,
2
2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
3
Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4
God saw how good the light was. God then separated the light from the darkness.
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3 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." Thus evening came, and morning followed--the first day.
6
Then God said, "Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters, to separate one body of water from the other." And so it happened:
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God made the dome, and it separated the water above the dome from the water below it.
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God called the dome "the sky." Evening came, and morning followed--the second day.
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Then God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered into a single basin, so that the dry land may appear." And so it happened: the water under the sky was gathered into its basin, and the dry land appeared.
10
God called the dry land "the earth," and the basin of the water he called "the sea." God saw how good it was.
11
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth vegetation: every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it." And so it happened:
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the earth brought forth every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it. God saw how good it was.
13
Evening came, and morning followed--the third day.
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Then God said: "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate day from night. Let them mark the fixed times, the days and the years,
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and serve as luminaries in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth." And so it happened:
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God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night; and he made the stars.
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God set them in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth,
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to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. God saw how good it was.
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Evening came, and morning followed--the fourth day.
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Then God said, "Let the water teem with an abundance of living creatures, and on the earth let birds fly beneath the dome of the sky." And so it happened:
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God created the great sea monsters and all kinds of swimming creatures with which the water teems, and all kinds of winged birds. God saw how good it was,
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and God blessed them, saying, "Be fertile, multiply, and fill the water of the seas; and let the birds multiply on the earth."
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Evening came, and morning followed--the fifth day.
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Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living creatures: cattle, creeping things, and wild animals of all kinds." And so it happened:
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God made all kinds of wild animals, all kinds of cattle, and all kinds of creeping things of the earth. God saw how good it was.
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4 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground."
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God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
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God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."
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God also said: "See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food;
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and to all the animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for food." And so it happened.
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God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. Evening came, and morning followed--the sixth day.[/quote]

This is the first story of creation look at the order! Good point!

But man was made for God we were made in His image not monkeys. You can see the above God says let US, (The Holy Trinity) make man in OUR IMAGE and LIKENESS. The DIVINE IMAGE He created them,.....male and female.

God Bless
Jason

[CreepyCrawler]

but would it be possible that the biological world and system and cells (amazing things) that God created was a good basis for ALL life and the only difference in forms is the way they're put together? monkeys aren't in the image of God, humans are. i totally agree. but i think you can still make the arguement that God took the monkey, tweaked it into the actual image of God, and then gave us souls. God can do whatever He wants. why can't He have done that?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='CreepyCrawler' date='Apr 30 2004, 04:13 PM'] but would it be possible that the biological world and system and cells (amazing things) that God created was a good basis for ALL life and the only difference in forms is the way they're put together? monkeys aren't in the image of God, humans are. i totally agree. but i think you can still make the arguement that God took the monkey, tweaked it into the actual image of God, and then gave us souls. God can do whatever He wants. why can't He have done that? [/quote]
I love you brother!

You are like talking to my brother-in-law! haha!

It doesn't go with Sacred Scripture, It clearly says He formed man from the clay of the earth, not cells that devoloped into monkey into man.

I agree God can do what ever He wants, but He is Perfect, so no tweak was needed.

In the love of Christ
Jason

[CreepyCrawler]

hey, the pope says i can believe in evolution if i want to as long as i believe that God's in charge, He had a plan, and made us (and only us) in His image -- which i do. i just think that evolution was part of His plan, which doesn't subtract from any of the essentials of genesis. it just fills in some blanks. so stop banging your head into the wall, i'm sure it hurts
like i said, it can be either or and it won't affect our love for Christ.

[crusader1234]

Hey sorry I don't have the patience to read all those posts but...

1) St. Augustine believed something akin to God creating a 'seed' material form which evolution took place

2) The creation stories should not be taken literally, people... there are TWO stories!!! There is no possible way we can discern which one to believe, thus making them historically incorrect one way or another.

[MrsFrozen]

I don't believe in evolution, that one thing evolves into a completely different species. But I do believe in adaptation.

[Aloysius]

i understand that you [b]can[/b] believe in it as long as you keep the Divine Creator in the center, and acknowledge that He lovingly made every detail the way He wanted it.

i just don't believe that. it makes much more sense to me that other human-like species have gone extinct. if someone could prove to me otherwise, i'd be glad to hear it... but till then i'm defining those fossils as a completely different species that went extinct way back when.

anyway, while not taking those stories literally, you DO haveto believe Adam and Eve were real people, lived in paradise, sinned against God, and fell. now was it them actually eating a piece of fruit? possibly, but it could have been anything God had banned them from doing and they disobeyed. you cannot reconcile Catholic Theology if you take out original sin.

what do you think about Adam and Eve being in the Garden when the Dinosaurs were roming the earth, then God hadta kill off the dinosaurs when He kicked us out?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Apr 30 2004, 07:34 PM']i understand that you [b]can[/b] believe in it as long as you keep the Divine Creator in the center, and acknowledge that He lovingly made every detail the way He wanted it. 

i just don't believe that.  it makes much more sense to me that other human-like species have gone extinct.  if someone could prove to me otherwise, i'd be glad to hear it... but till then i'm defining those fossils as a completely different species that went extinct way back when. 

anyway, while not taking those stories literally, you DO haveto believe Adam and Eve were real people, lived in paradise, sinned against God, and fell.  now was it them actually eating a piece of fruit?  possibly, but it could have been anything God had banned them from doing and they disobeyed.  you cannot reconcile Catholic Theology if you take out original sin.

what do you think about Adam and Eve being in the Garden when the Dinosaurs were roming the earth, then God hadta kill off the dinosaurs when He kicked us out?  [/quote]
I think dinosaurs were hairy not reptile skin

[luciana]

When I was little and learned about dinosaus and how they all died but scientists didn't know how, I used to think that the dinosaurs died in The flood I like your idea (before Adam and Eve leaving the garden) better!

I remember reading somewhere taht there are different evolutionary beliefs, one- Darwinian evolution is the one that people think of when they think of evolution. This is the one that says there is no cause, everything is random survival of the fittest stuff, which makes no sense.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Apr 30 2004, 04:51 PM'] The creation stories should not be taken literally, people... there are TWO stories!!! There is no possible way we can discern which one to believe, thus making them historically incorrect one way or another. [/quote]
Uf. You won't find a single Father of the Church embracing the theories of secular historical criticism (which should be quite obvious, since the scholars who came up with thse ideas wanted to discredit Christianity). You are siding with Julius Wellhausen against 3000 years of Christian and Jewish patrimony.

You are proposing that Genesis has two contradictory creation stories which can not be taken literally. Well, for thousands of years Jews and Christians have read these stories, taken them literally, and not seen any contradiction. Don't you think that if there were two different stories, someone would have noticed?

In fact, the "two" stories can be reconciled quite easily.

[quote]Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so.  The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.  There was evening and there was morning, a third day. (Genesis 1:11-13)

Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.  Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.(Genesis 2:5-7)[/quote]
This is the argument brought forth most often for the two story theory; the first story has the creation of plants before the creation of man, and the second has it after. However, the contect of the statement "no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted" makes it clear that it is referring not to all plants, but solely to cultivated plants i.e. crops. Look what it says immediately afterward: "for there was no man to cultivate the ground." If the "shrubs and plants of the field" of verse 5 referred to all plants (grass, bushes, trees, etc) this would make absolutely no sense. Such plants don't need men to cultivate them!

[quote]Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens."
God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.  God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.  Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so.  God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:20-25)

Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. (Genesis 2:19)[/quote]
This argument is similar; some claim that the "first" story has the creation of animals before the creation of man while the "second" story contradicts the "first" by placing this event afterward. Again, the solution is fairly simple. It's not too hard to imagine that God simply created more animals and birds on the sixth day (the day of the creation of man, to which Genesis 2:19 refers) over and above those which He created on the fourth and fifth, and that the "every" in v. 2:19 means He created one of every [i]type[/i] of beast and bird on that day, not that He created every beast and bird which had ever existed. As Genesis 1 records, that had already been accomplished.

Modern readers like to see everything in chronological order, and thus are tempted to see 2 different stories in narratives such as Genesis 1-2, which do not fit into our literary paradigm. However, this type of writing is fairly common in ancient near-eastern literature. Quite often such narratives start out with a broad overview of events (Genesis 1) and then take a step chronologically backward, and fill in the details (Genesis 2). The two chapters stand as a unified whole.

[Azriel]

I'll say it once, I'll say it a thousand times.

We cannot know how God did it.

The fact that we need to remember is that HE did.

The rest is just details.

The older I get the more I am aware of the great beauty that lies in mystery.