Catholic And Gay

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1322983293' post='2344308']
Uh...why should that matter? I thought homosexuality was okay, acting on that homosexuality wasn't.
[/quote]
Not exactly. The orientation itself is intrinsically disordered. It is not sinful if acted upon, but it remains disordered.

[Kia ora]

All humans are disordered from the perspective of original sin.

I don't understand what that has to do with homosexuals in the priesthood.

[Nihil Obstat]

"From the time of the Second Vatican Council until today, various Documents of the Magisterium, and especially the [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], have confirmed the teaching of the Church on homosexuality. The [i]Catechism [/i]distinguishes between homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies.

Regarding [i]acts, [/i]it teaches that Sacred Scripture presents them as grave sins. The Tradition has constantly considered them as intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law. Consequently, under no circumstance can they be approved.

Deep-seated homosexual [i]tendencies, [/i]which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfil God's will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter[size="3"][url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html#_ftn8"][8][/url][/size].

In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[size="3"][url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html#_ftn9"][9][/url][/size], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture"[size="3"][url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html#_ftn10"][10][/url][/size].

Such persons, in fact, find themselves in a [b]situation that gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women[/b]. One must in no way overlook the [b]negative consequences that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies[/b].

Different, however, would be the case in which one were dealing with homosexual tendencies that were only the expression of a transitory problem - for example, that of an adolescence not yet superseded. Nevertheless, such tendencies must be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate. "

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html[/url]



The issue is that same-sex attraction is more than simple temptation. It's a very serious disordered inclination that goes beyond normal concupiscence. As a spiritual and emotional disorder it has serious ramifications in terms of how one relates on a spiritual and emotional level with the people around him, and it is absolutely crucial that a priest has every advantage in that area.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1322993707' post='2344330']
All humans are disordered from the perspective of original sin.

I don't understand what that has to do with homosexuals in the priesthood.
[/quote]

I believe the Pope issued a document recently (it may have been the same ione Nihil posted) stating that homosexuality is imcompatible with the priesthood.

On a practical note, if you place a homosexual male in an environment with a lot of other males, you increase his temptations.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Norseman82

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1322983293' post='2344308']
Uh...why should that matter? I thought homosexuality was okay, acting on that homosexuality wasn't.
[/quote]

Part of the problem is that if a man with homosexual attractions wasn't sufficiently mature in his spirituality and his sexuality, seminary would just post one giant temptation. I mean, think about it - these men are joining a live-in school where they receive an intense spiritual and theological education, and they're bound to (and encouraged to) form very strong brotherly friendships with their fellow seminarians. If I were a man with same sex attraction, don't know if I could handle not forming any "special relationships" with a brother seminarian. It'd just be much easier if sexual attraction wasn't an issue, you know? A man would have to be incredibly mature and disciplined in his own sexuality to be able to handle making chaste friendships in that setting. That's not to say that a man dealing with same sex attractions couldn't ever become a priest - jamesmerton, the blogger I linked to above, is one of those young men discerning the priesthood (with a spiritual director, of course). It's a lot to deal with, though, on top of the rigorous training priesthood requires.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I always interpreted the Vatican's use of "deep rooted" to mean that one is actively dealing with homosexual attractions in one's daily life, particularly because the phrase is linked to supporting "gay culture" in the passage. Maybe not every day, per se, but that one is dealing with same sex attraction as an active temptation in one's life. A man would have to have "gotten over it." Not everyone is capable of that kind of discipline, because some sexual attractions are stronger than others. I'd imagine very few people would be capable of overcoming it enough to enter the priesthood.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Basilisa Marie

[stevil]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1322975397' post='2344284']

Do you believe in legal positivism? Is something right or wrong because The Law says so?
[/quote]
There is no other authority.
The law in my country says that it is illegal for an adult to have sex with a person under 16 years of age. This age limit is somewhat arbitrary. If you got a group of people to write down the age limit for sex, I'm pretty sure you will get a variety of ages written down.

But I do hope for law change on some things. I hope gay people get the legal right for full blown secular marrage, I hope euthanasia become leegal...

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323022323' post='2344391']
There is no other authority.
The law in my country says that it is illegal for an adult to have sex with a person under 16 years of age. This age limit is somewhat arbitrary. If you got a group of people to write down the age limit for sex, I'm pretty sure you will get a variety of ages written down.

But I do hope for law change on some things. I hope gay people get the legal right for full blown secular marrage, I hope euthanasia become leegal...
[/quote]

I don't understand. But if there's no other authority than the law, how can something be right if it's not legal? Wouldn't there have to be some outside guideline that determines what is right or not, if there are things that are illegal but moral (assuming you'd argue that gay marriage and euthanasia are moral)?

[stevil]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1323026527' post='2344435']

I don't understand. But if there's no other authority than the law, how can something be right if it's not legal? Wouldn't there have to be some outside guideline that determines what is right or not, if there are things that are illegal but moral (assuming you'd argue that gay marriage and euthanasia are moral)?
[/quote]
I don't subscribe to the concept of morals. I have an opinion, but that is my opinion, it is built on my upbringing, culture, environment, education, discussion with others and thoughtful contemplation.
I don't expect my opinions to be an objective morality base upon which everyone must obey.

I recognise the law as the authority but in a democratic society the law gives me the opportunity to influence and challenge.
I feel the law ought to intervene with regards to achieving a functional society, hence we shouldn't go around killing each other or seeking vigilante justice.
On matters that don't impact significantly on society, I feel the government should not intervene. I am also strongly against discrimination based on gender, race, culture, sexual orientation, skin colour, ethnicity, physical state (e.g, health or disorders), religious belief...
Although I believe people in society should be allowed to affiliate and/or teach religious belief, I am strongly against religious teaching, or organisations imposing discrimination.

In particular I don't see gay marriage or euthanasia as moral or immoral, I see these as a personal choice of the people who which to take part in these events.

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1322983092' post='2344305']
If life long celibacy is what gay people must do, wouldn't they be a good fit for priesthood?
[/quote]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1322983293' post='2344308']
Uh...why should that matter? I thought homosexuality was okay, acting on that homosexuality wasn't.
[/quote]

A very good and Holy priest once said

"great priests would make great husbands and great husbands would make great priests"

First, the call to the priesthood isn't about what else you can't do. It's about a call within your soul and a desire to give your all to the Lord and His flock. Same goes for the call to religious life. You don't choose the priesthood because you have no other choice just like you don't choose religious life because you can't find a man. In order to truly appreciate them both one needs to truly understand and [i]appreciate [/i]the beauty of marriage (i.e. between a man and a woman)

[LaPetiteSoeur]

I have two gay friends. The only thing I can do is pray for them.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323022323' post='2344391']
There is no other authority.
The law in my country says that it is illegal for an adult to have sex with a person under 16 years of age. This age limit is somewhat arbitrary. If you got a group of people to write down the age limit for sex, I'm pretty sure you will get a variety of ages written down.

But I do hope for law change on some things. I hope gay people get the legal right for full blown secular marrage, I hope euthanasia become leegal...
[/quote]
So then for you, right and wrong is what the law says is right and wrong. You accept this... on faith? What if the government tells you to do what is wrong, or not to do what is right?
How is right and wrong determined in your world, with no authority higher than the State?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323033827' post='2344516']
So then for you, right and wrong is what the law says is right and wrong. You accept this... on faith? What if the government tells you to do what is wrong, or not to do what is right?
How is right and wrong determined in your world, with no authority higher than the State?
[/quote]
Yes, I'm curious to know whether you [stevil] thinks murder is wrong, and if so, why?

[BigJon16]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1323020032' post='2344378']

Part of the problem is that if a man with homosexual attractions wasn't sufficiently mature in his spirituality and his sexuality, seminary would just post one giant temptation. I mean, think about it - these men are joining a live-in school where they receive an intense spiritual and theological education, and they're bound to (and encouraged to) form very strong brotherly friendships with their fellow seminarians. If I were a man with same sex attraction, don't know if I could handle not forming any "special relationships" with a brother seminarian. It'd just be much easier if sexual attraction wasn't an issue, you know? A man would have to be incredibly mature and disciplined in his own sexuality to be able to handle making chaste friendships in that setting. That's not to say that a man dealing with same sex attractions couldn't ever become a priest - jamesmerton, the blogger I linked to above, is one of those young men discerning the priesthood (with a spiritual director, of course). It's a lot to deal with, though, on top of the rigorous training priesthood requires.

[/quote]

Everyone has their own Cross to bear, and it shouldn't ever get in the way of their Vocation. And we shouldn't say that it could.

There is a documentary titled "The Saint of 9/11". Its about Fr. Mychal Judge, who was the Chaplain in the FDNY. He died in the attacks on September 11th while trying to help out in the towers. The documentary notes on many things, how he was a very great and devoted priest, how he served many people in his community, not just firefighters and their families, but many homosexuals. It also notes that he himself was a homosexual. Its a really beautiful and inspirational story, that just goes to show, that our crosses cant get in the way of God's plan, and in fact, our crosses are a major part of God's plan.

Here's the a link to the site: [url="http://www.saintof9-11.com/saint/"]http://www.saintof9-11.com/saint/[/url]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1323040261' post='2344548']

Everyone has their own Cross to bear, and it shouldn't ever get in the way of their Vocation. And we shouldn't say that it could.

There is a documentary titled "The Saint of 9/11". Its about Fr. Mychal Judge, who was the Chaplain in the FDNY. He died in the attacks on September 11th while trying to help out in the towers. The documentary notes on many things, how he was a very great and devoted priest, how he served many people in his community, not just firefighters and their families, but many homosexuals. It also notes that he himself was a homosexual. Its a really beautiful and inspirational story, that just goes to show, that our crosses cant get in the way of God's plan, and in fact, our crosses are a major part of God's plan.

Here's the a link to the site: [url="http://www.saintof9-11.com/saint/"]http://www.saintof9-11.com/saint/[/url]
[/quote]
The fact that the film was sponsored by the Equality Forum - a secular "nonprofit organization whose mission is to advance national and international gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) civil rights through education" - makes me a little wary...

[Nihil Obstat]

What Fr. Judge did on September 11 was certainly heroic, but he's far from uncontroversial. For instance I've heard he was rather closely linked to the Dignity organization. That's the bad one; Courage is the good one.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1323040261' post='2344548']

Everyone has their own Cross to bear, and it shouldn't ever get in the way of their Vocation. And we shouldn't say that it could.

[/quote]

But certain crosses [i]can [/i]get in the way of the practice of a vocation. I was giving a practical reason why it'd be very difficult for someone with deep-seated homosexual tendencies to become a priest, because the mere formation process would be a strong temptation to sin. The Church has certain rules for the good of everyone. These rules are a way of preventing people who aren't ready for it from pursuing it. People with same sex attraction have just as much dignity and deserve just as much of our love and respect as anyone else. But that doesn't change the fact that we have to recognize the differences in people, and acknowledge that those differences can mean different circumstances for people. I couldn't become a priest even if I wanted to, because I'm female. That is something I can't change. For some men, however, it is possible to discipline oneself enough for the priesthood if he experiences some same sex attractions. There are different rules for how someone can become a priest, whether the person is female, male with same sex attraction, or a heterosexual male.

Furthermore, I think it's important to note that Vocations aren't ultimately about what others want or what [i]we [/i]want, but what God is calling us to. Yes, God uses our desires and the direction of others to help guide us to that vocation. But we can also trust in the guidance of the Church, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, to help us discern our vocation.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323029239' post='2344467']
I don't subscribe to the concept of morals. I have an opinion, but that is my opinion, it is built on my upbringing, culture, environment, education, discussion with others and thoughtful contemplation.
I don't expect my opinions to be an objective morality base upon which everyone must obey.

I recognise the law as the authority but in a democratic society the law gives me the opportunity to influence and challenge.
I feel the law ought to intervene with regards to achieving a functional society, hence we shouldn't go around killing each other or seeking vigilante justice.
On matters that don't impact significantly on society, I feel the government should not intervene. I am also strongly against discrimination based on gender, race, culture, sexual orientation, skin colour, ethnicity, physical state (e.g, health or disorders), religious belief...
Although I believe people in society should be allowed to affiliate and/or teach religious belief, I am strongly against religious teaching, or organisations imposing discrimination.

In particular I don't see gay marriage or euthanasia as moral or immoral, I see these as a personal choice of the people who which to take part in these events.
[/quote]

Okay, so you don't believe in an objective morality - am I correct on this? If I am, I don't understand how you can say that we shouldn't go around killing people vigilante style. Do you believe this holds true for all people (that no one should do it)? What I mean is, are there any actions that are always wrong, no matter the intention or circumstance? Or even if we control for intention or circumstance, are there actions that are always wrong? Like, killing may not always be wrong. But would you say that killing a person with the intention of taking an innocent life is always wrong?

Also, what motivates you to be strongly against certain things, like discrimination? I mean, does this also count as an opinion? If so, is there anything that makes your opinion more valid than someone who believes it'd be great to give white, American, male, Protestant Christian, abled person all the jobs just because this employer doesn't like anyone who doesn't fit that bill?

[mortify]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1322936502' post='2344087']
Christianities opposition to homosexuality will be their downfall.
Society has moved on with acceptance, compassion and love for these people. Society does not feel that anyone has the right to suggest that gay people should be celibate.
[/quote]

On the contrary, accepting things like "homosexual unions" will only lead to the West's downfall. A society that runs contrary to nature and reason can not survive.

[mortify]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1322947942' post='2344156']
I am for pornography, but against child pornography.
[/quote]

Obviously you have no idea of the great harm that is done to those in porn, as well as those who watch it. Many secular (including feminists) are against pornography for this reason.

[mortify]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1323029239' post='2344467']
I don't subscribe to the concept of morals. I have an opinion, but that is my opinion, it is built on my upbringing, culture, environment, education, discussion with others and thoughtful contemplation.
I don't expect my opinions to be an objective morality base upon which everyone must obey.
[/quote]

This type of "thinking" leads to the dissolution of society.