Pope Seeks End To Death Penalty

[dominicansoul]

i gave you props, cos I couldn't resist...that's a good one!

[sixpence]

Hi KofC

[Tony]

when the Holy Father speaks on the death penalty the whole "Obedience to the pope" thing goes out the window.. interesting..

Could be be possibly trying to protect the ones wrongfully imprisoned and are on death row ? and even if he knows what the Council of Trent says (Which Im sure he does) maybe he thinks the risk of the above happening outweighs execuction? that's one to ponder.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1323139348' post='2345289']
Good. I think it's about time we ended the death penalty[b] in first-world nations[/b].
[/quote]



[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1323291179' post='2346754']
In terms of subjective values I think that killing people is disgraceful, no matter how defective the victim. Rehabilitation and containment are interesting. As a practical and sociological question I suspect that institutionalized people slaying is not so healthy for a society.
[/quote]
there's interesting studies coming from European countries about rehabilitation. can't find them now though.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1323298131' post='2346857']
If you're implying that people involved in criminal justice necessarily support your viewpoint I call [b]boolsheet[/b]. Also, the fact that I don't have direct experience with warfare, wife-beating, or occupy wall street, doesn't mean that my moral intuitions about such things are wrong. If you know so much about it I expect you can provide adequate facts and arguments to substantiate your pov. I look forward to being schooled.
[/quote]

is this some Soviet Russia thing?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1323307778' post='2347010']

Which would include the Church Fathers at Trent. Good thing for us we know better and have better developed morals than they.
[/quote]

i thought you had shaken the dust off of your feet at us?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1323387974' post='2347572']

is this some Soviet Russia thing?
[/quote]
Little known fact about the Communist revolution. The Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks were the main players, but the Boolheetiks worked behind the scenes doing a lot of munitions supply line work, and most of the original Soviet propaganda came out of their communal print shops.

[dominicansoul]

Are we Catholics supposed to believe that the Church reached its pinnacle at the Council of Trent?







(that's a thought shared by a friend, btw... I just wanted to post it, cos its pretty good... hahahaha)

[Lil Red]

moving to debate table.

[Nihil Obstat]

Mkay everyone, stop debating for the rest of the day so that Red has to move it back.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323388285' post='2347579']
Mkay everyone, stop debating for the rest of the day so that Red has to move it back.
[/quote]
Whoa, the face looks a heck of a lot like Hobbes in her avatar.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323388310' post='2347579']Whoa, the face looks a heck of a lot like Hobbes in her avatar.[/quote]
why do you think i picked that avatar?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1323388389' post='2347581']
why do you think i picked that avatar?
[/quote]

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1323385077' post='2347548']
Devil's Advocate Statement to show the true hypocrisy of this thread.

[i]As someone who has actually witnessed Religious Liberty, or any other Vatican II teaching you like, I can truthfully say that there was nothing Christian or biblical about it.[/i]

Do you think that will get me a crazy dope post, yo?! Prolly not. The truths of Trent 'can' be rejected but all blankly blank would break lose if someone were to deny, question or mock any truth or truths taught by Vatican II.
[/quote]

I remember about a month and 2 days ago you swore off the internet entirely. great willpower, yo.

I guess arguing against the Pope's position is just too fun to resist.

[MIKolbe]

Can the Pope dogmatically 'accept' the parts of Trent that have been traipsed around as it refers to the death penalty, while pastorally working for its end? Or is that hypocritical? Can he believe the DP can be implemented, yet work for its very dismantling?

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323282816' post='2346613']
[size=4][b]Catechism of the Council of Trent[/b][/size]

The power of life and death is permitted to certain civil magistrates because theirs is the responsibility under law to punish the guilty and protect the innocent. Far from being guilty of breaking this commandment [Thy shall not kill], such an execution of justice is precisely an act of obedience to it. For the purpose of the law is to protect and foster human life. This purpose is fulfilled when the legitimate authority of the State is exercised by taking the guilty lives of those who have taken innocent lives.

In the Psalms we find a vindication of this right: “Morning by morning I will destroy all the wicked in the land, cutting off all evildoers from the city of the Lord” (Ps. 101:8).

[right][size=2][size=3]([i]Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent[/i], 1566, Part III, 5, n. 4[/size])[/size][/right]

[/quote]


This is 100% accurate and still true today. What is different today is that life can be protected and fostered without the need to kill the guilty. The chance of escape in any prison throughout the world is next to impossible. This is why the Holy Father and the Vatican have been working towards the end of the death penalty for over a decade

[Jaime]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1323295034' post='2346817']
People who have no experience with criminal punishment really have no clue why a brick building with steel doors isn't enough.

Remember, even if it is possible to absolutely contain criminals (which [i]isn't[/i] possible - some will always be able to find a way to escape), we have to employ people to care for them. Those people are [i]constantly[/i] in harms way (some are injured or even killed), and many of those guys end up so emotionally and mentally hurt that they become alcoholics.

I'm not saying the Pope is wrong; we should [i]want[/i] to end capital punishment. But currently, that's not possible without endangering the lives of innocent people.
[/quote]

I have 10 years experience building prisons. I've worked closely and became friends with many correctional officers across the country. I've met with hundreds of architects here and around the world and I can tell you that while it takes more than steel doors and brick, we provide much more than steel doors and brick. The end result is that society is safe from those who have committed capital offenses.

Everything that the Church has taught about the execution of violent criminals is based on the protection of the innocent people in society. Society is well protected

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1323385077' post='2347548']
Do you think that will get me a crazy dope post, yo?! Prolly not. The truths of Trent 'can' be rejected but all blankly blank would break lose if someone were to deny, question or mock any truth or truths taught by Vatican II.
[/quote]
[img]http://angrywhitedude.com/wp-content/uploads2/2011/07/are-you-wizard.jpg[/img]

[Jaime]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1323306474' post='2346978']


What a bunch of outdated nonsense Trent doesn't matter anymore, not really. That kind of dogmatic thinking should be given no praise or honor, just mockery and rejection. Thankfully we have developed ourselves away from the Holy Ghost's stupid, outdated, barbaric, rightwing nonsense that some how the State has a right to enforce justice on the wicked.
[/quote]


It's offensive statements like this that got your Church Militant tag taken away

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1323401982' post='2347739']
It's offensive statements like this that got your Church Militant tag taken away
[/quote]
The only thing that his statement offends is what little intellect I have.

[CatherineM]

This is what Archbishop Dolan had to say on the subject this week, “If even a man on death row has a soul, is a human person, an ‘is’ that cannot be erased even by beastly crimes he may have committed, then we ought not to strap him to a gurney and inject him with poison.”[color=#000000][left]
Read more: [url="http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/archbishop-dolan-discusses-church-teaching-on-the-dignity-of-human-life#ixzz1g0lpoWDw"]http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/archbishop-dolan-discusses-church-teaching-on-the-dignity-of-human-life#ixzz1g0lpoWDw[/url][/left][/color][/left]