Traditionalism & Fascism

January 19, 2012

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326870693' post='2370952']
I've heard of things, like Mel Gibson popping off when he was drunk or something, but I don't think any of the traditionalists who I know and have known would think of endorsing fascism or anti-semitism. As a Traditional Latin Mass lover I take offense. Maybe you could be more specific. What made you think up these questions?
[/quote]

Brother Laudate, in response to your question, it was brought up by a homily said by Fr Angelo Geiger. He mentioned the underlying fascism and totalitarianism of the traditionalist movement, and I found myself in agreement. Now, there is a distinction between a Traditionalist, and someone that's traditional, and I think most of us can tell the difference. Anyway, here is the homily by the wise Father:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsGvx7Bv4Ac&lc=qR8hFURlJAzJIyy8W6gsyvT4MTPnr4NNO42S5xXQheE&context=C3b12aa9ADOEgsToPDskLUEYoryOUeWPkEbyBuc3Nw

January 19, 2012

Again: Where do Traditionalists advocate government control or privately held corporations as part of Catholicism?

Of do we just like saying "fascist" because we think that equals anti-semitism?

January 19, 2012

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1326991276' post='2371472']
Again: Where do Traditionalists advocate government control or privately held corporations as part of Catholicism?

Of do we just like saying "fascist" because we think that equals anti-semitism?
[/quote]

The subservience of the private sector to the 'national interest' and the right of the state to direct the private sector is an inherent aspect of modern, European fascism. But there is a lot more to fascism than that and the control exerted need not be direct government absorption (control here is ambiguous. In a general sense the state controls the private sector and corporations in every state) of all corporations. There is a lot more to fascism than it's economic policies and a lot of what supports fascism philosophically can be found in the proponents of the Counter-Enlightenment, particularly Catholics like Joseph de Maistre. And it is from this Reactionary Catholicism that fascism sprang. Not all fascists are Catholic (although there is a strong correlation there. Look at which states became fascist, mostly South American and Catholic European countries) but the intellectual currents that fascists pulled was in large part constructed by Catholic thinkers. I don't think the link necessarily exists but it often has and because of that there is often a thin line between Traditionalists and fascists. As seen on Fight Eaters.

January 19, 2012

Fascism is remarkably hard to pin down, as anyone who has attempted to study it knows. I would be willing to put forth the statement that very few governments which self-identified as fascists were actually textbook fascists. Most of the time such regimes crumbled into thinly-veiled dictatorships. Even Mussolini admitted that fascism was very hard to describe and that he didn't care; "We don't give a beaver dam about these empty terminologies and we despise those who are terrorized by these words." Large and in charge, so to speak.

All that said, I have known a few of my more traditionalist friends to (usually jokingly) pine for an authoritarian and theocratic state as an answer to the corruption and amorality of society, but I wouldn't say they're fascists. But that's mostly because I have a hard time really believing that fascism is a specialised thing you can do, as opposed to simple authoritarianism or dictatorship.

EDIT: Note that my notion of texbook fascism differs from what you'd see on Wikipedia. Wikipedia seems to state the tenants of fascism as follows:

-Nationalism
-Authoritarianism
-Social Darwinism
-Social Interventionism

Economically the fascists were not united, with various ideals being followed, including national corporatism, socialism, and syndicalism.
I would say most, if not all traditionalist Catholics would be opposed to social darwinism at least, if they were not opposed to social interventionism.

Edited January 19, 2012 by arfink

January 19, 2012

Meesa thinkin' trads come in all varieties. Disco-loving trads, anarcho-capitalist trads, bald-butted trads, q-tip head trads...

January 20, 2012

It is no more accurate to say that Catholic traditionalism is tied to fascism and anti-semitism than to claim that liberal Catholicism is tied to Communism.

I've been attending an FSSP Latin Mass parish for close to two and a half years now, and have not heard anything remotely approaching anti-Semitism or fascism, despite the content of the sermons being quite un-pc. A visiting priest once gave a homily that was rather strongly monarchist, but monarchism is not the same thing as fascism.

Most of the people there seem pretty normal.

I think both the terms "anti-semitic" and "fascist" tend to be thrown around much too loosely by liberals to refer to those who disagree with them. Especially in the 60s/70s hippie era, "fascist" was an epiphet tossed around by liberals to refer to any conservatives.

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1326917641' post='2371084']
Does Fascism equal Traditionalism? It can be argued that the Nazi's were very non-traditional. The same goes for the other way around, ie. Tradionalism = Fascism.

They are two very different things.

Seem pretty different to me.

But it also seems that it could be possible for one to lead to the other.

Antisemitism can come from anything. I know of a few fellow Roman Catholics who are relatively anti-Semitic.
[/quote]
Technically, the Nazis (Natural Socialists) were a different movement than the Fascists, though there were similarities and Nazis and fascists were allied in WWII.

The Nazis were certainly not Catholic "traditionalists," nor were they really Christians of any kind. They rejected traditional Christianity, which they sought to replace with a Nazi church, and were opposed to the Catholic Church from the start.

Also, anti-Semites are not necessarily fascist, nor are fascists necessarily anti-semitic.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326870693' post='2370952']
I've heard of things, like Mel Gibson popping off when he was drunk or something, but I don't think any of the traditionalists who I know and have known would think of endorsing fascism or anti-semitism. As a Traditional Latin Mass lover I take offense. Maybe you could be more specific. What made you think up these questions?
[/quote]
Gibson (as is his father) is a Sede, and their views do not reflect those of most traditionalist Catholics faithful to the Church.

I think we all should be praying for Mr. Gibson, rather than using his various misdeeds as a stick to beat Traditionalists or conservatives with, as some liberals are fond of doing.

January 20, 2012

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1327023555' post='2371728']
It is no more accurate to say that Catholic traditionalism is tied to fascism and anti-semitism than to claim that liberal Catholicism is tied to Communism.
[/quote]

That's a false conflation. The question is about Traditionalism not conservative Catholicism. There is an intellectual link between fascism and the Traditional Catholicism that emerged with the counter-Enlightenment. They aren't the same thing but the link are there.

January 20, 2012

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1326898163' post='2371001']
"traditionalists" does not equal radical/extreme traditionalist

I love the Latin Mass and I prefer that Mass over all others... I don't consider myself a radical traditionalist, but a Roman Catholic
[/quote]
I think it's generally the tiny minority of extremists and weirdos (many of them not in communion with the Church) who make the most noise and get the most attention, and thus give the rest of us a bad name.

January 20, 2012

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1327023555' post='2371728']

Technically, the Nazis (Natural Socialists) were a different movement than the Fascists, though there were similarities and Nazis and fascists were allied in WWII.

The Nazis were certainly not Catholic "traditionalists," nor were they really Christians of any kind. They rejected traditional Christianity, which they sought to replace with a Nazi church, and were opposed to the Catholic Church from the start.
[/quote]

I agree.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1327023555' post='2371728']
Also, anti-Semites are not necessarily fascist, nor are fascists necessarily anti-semitic.

[/quote]

I never said that anti-Semites are necessarily fascist. I agree with you.

January 20, 2012

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1326932416' post='2371192']
I used Anne Carrol's traditionalist text book for history. She is in love with facism. I would say there is a connection.
[/quote]
[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1326943300' post='2371258']
Re: "Christ the King, Lord of History, by Anne Carrol.

It actually almost made me feel embarassed to be Catholic - and I was reading it while dressed in a habit!

Not a fan.
[/quote]
I've known the late Dr. Warren Carroll (founder of Christendom College) and his wife Anne (president of Seton High School) most of my life, and I own [i]Christ the King, Lord of History[/i], as well as most of Dr. Carroll's history books (which are all excellent, btw). I studied history under Dr. Carroll in one of the last classes to graduate before Dr. Carroll started having his health problems, and have a tremendous amount of respect for the man.

I feel completely confident in saying that the Carrolls have done more for the good of the Church than anyone posting on Phatmass, so I think this nonsense being posted is completely out of line. I can say for a fact that neither Dr. Carroll nor his wife are fascists.

The issue, I think, concerns their views of the Spanish Civil War and Franco. Franco, while "Fascist," and no saint, was Catholic, was far from a Hitler-like monster. His forces were opposing extremely evil and viciously and fanatically anti-Catholic Communist forces who wished to wipe out the Church in Spain. Carroll's sympathies were not primary fascist, but with the Carlists who wanted to restore the rule of the Spanish monarchy. Good knowledge of facts of the Spanish Civil War, and the vicious and ruthless anti-Catholicism of the Spanish Communists is necessary before bashing Dr. or Mrs. Carroll over their views. If you're interested in learning about Dr. Carroll's views on the Spanish Civil War in more depth, I'd recommend reading his book [i][url="http://www.amazon.com/Last-Crusade-Warren-H-Carroll/dp/0931888670/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327024488&sr=1-1"]The Last Crusade[/url], [/i]as well as his excellent [url="http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Communist-Revolution/dp/093188859X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327025162&sr=1-1"][i]The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution[/i][/url].

The claim that Warren or Anne Carroll is "madly in love with fascism" is complete nonsense, as the Carroll's do not endorse fascism as any kind of political ideal, and their writings (including [i]Christ the King[/i]) are strongly opposed to Mussolini and the Italian Fascists, as well as strongly anti-Nazi.

They are certainly not anti-semitic, as Dr. Carroll strongly denounces anti-Semitism as coming from Satan.

(And, incidentally, the Carroll's are not trads, so their views are irrelevant to discussing those of traditionalism.)

While [i]Christ the King[/i] can be a bit simplistic, and "dumbed down" from the works of Dr. Carroll, that's because it's written for junior high and high school students. While you may not agree with everything in it it, it's definitely a hundred times better than most of the politically-correct garbage that are high-school history textbooks today. I'd recommend reading Dr. Carroll's books if you're interested in learning about his views in more detail.

The works of the Carrolls certainly do not make me ashamed to be a Catholic, but proud, and the trashing of Mrs. Carroll going on here is ignorant and shameful.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Socrates

January 20, 2012

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1327025817' post='2371773']
I've known the late Dr. Warren Carroll (founder of Christendom College) and his wife Anne (president of Seton High School) most of my life, and I own [i]Christ the King, Lord of History[/i], as well as most of Dr. Carroll's history books (which are all excellent, btw). I studied history under Dr. Carroll in one of the last classes to graduate before Dr. Carroll started having his health problems, and have a tremendous amount of respect for the man.

I feel completely confident in saying that the Carrolls have done more for the good of the Church than anyone posting on Phatmass, so I think this nonsense being posted is completely out of line. I can say for a fact that neither Dr. Carroll nor his wife are fascists.

The issue, I think, concerns their views of the Spanish Civil War and Franco. Franco, while "Fascist," and no saint, was Catholic, was far from a Hitler-like monster. His forces were opposing extremely evil and viciously and fanatically anti-Catholic Communist forces who wished to wipe out the Church in Spain. Carroll's sympathies were not primary fascist, but with the Carlists who wanted to restore the rule of the Spanish monarchy. Good knowledge of facts of the Spanish Civil War, and the vicious and ruthless anti-Catholicism of the Spanish Communists is necessary before bashing Dr. or Mrs. Carroll over their views. If you're interested in learning about Dr. Carroll's views on the Spanish Civil War in more depth, I'd recommend reading his book [i][url="http://www.amazon.com/Last-Crusade-Warren-H-Carroll/dp/0931888670/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327024488&sr=1-1"]The Last Crusade[/url], [/i]as well as his excellent [url="http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Communist-Revolution/dp/093188859X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327025162&sr=1-1"][i]The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution[/i][/url].

The claim that Warren or Anne Carroll is "madly in love with fascism" is complete nonsense, as the Carroll's do not endorse fascism as any kind of political ideal, and their writings (including [i]Christ the King[/i]) are strongly opposed to Mussolini and the Italian Fascists, as well as strongly anti-Nazi.

They are certainly not anti-semitic, as Dr. Carroll strongly denounces anti-Semitism as coming from Satan.

(And, incidentally, the Carroll's are not trads, so their views are irrelevant to discussing those of traditionalism.)

While [i]Christ the King[/i] can be a bit simplistic, and "dumbed down" from the works of Dr. Carroll, that's because it's written for junior high and high school students. While you may not agree with everything in it it, it's definitely a hundred times better than most of the politically-correct garbage that are high-school history textbooks today. I'd recommend reading Dr. Carroll's books if you're interested in learning about his views in more detail.

The works of the Carrolls certainly do not make me ashamed to be a Catholic, but proud, and the trashing of Mrs. Carroll going on here is ignorant and shameful.
[/quote]
Off topic, but do they happen to be descended from the colonial-era Catholic Carrolls?

January 20, 2012

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1327025817' post='2371773']
Dr. Carroll stuff...
[/quote]

Huzzah for Dr. Carroll, I loved the guy's history books. As an added 2 cents, here's my "TL;DR version" of Dr. Carroll's views of Franco:

Franco- So yeah, these Commies are causing alot of trouble. Anybody wanna help a bro out?
Hitler- Yeh bro, here some money n guns n stuff. You want to help conquor the world?
Franco- razzle dazzle story bro. Later though. Gotta go beat Commies.
Hitler- ... wut?
Franco- See ya sucka!

January 20, 2012

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1326998756' post='2371524']
The subservience of the private sector to the 'national interest' and the right of the state to direct the private sector is an inherent aspect of modern, European fascism. But there is a lot more to fascism than that and the control exerted need not be direct government absorption (control here is ambiguous. In a general sense the state controls the private sector and corporations in every state) of all corporations. There is a lot more to fascism than it's economic policies and a lot of what supports fascism philosophically can be found in the proponents of the Counter-Enlightenment, particularly Catholics like Joseph de Maistre. And it is from this Reactionary Catholicism that fascism sprang. Not all fascists are Catholic (although there is a strong correlation there. Look at which states became fascist, mostly South American and Catholic European countries) but the intellectual currents that fascists pulled was in large part constructed by Catholic thinkers. I don't think the link necessarily exists but it often has and because of that there is often a thin line between Traditionalists and fascists. As seen on Fight Eaters.
[/quote]
There's no doubt that "social justice" can lead people to accept the rule of wise overlords. Fascism can be a bit hard to nail down, especially with people adopting the term as a proper name of their party. I think at its simplest, we can say it's a system wherein the government does not seek to abolish private property, but positively controls that property through regulation or legislation (beyond simply protecting others from the violation of property). I suppose nationalism has to be in there, but I think that's more a result of strong central governments than an inherent trait. Probably starched uniforms must also be present, and some kind of salute.

That leaves plenty to argue about, as what is control beyond protection of property will be a source of incessant contention.

January 21, 2012

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1327076941' post='2372010']
Huzzah for Dr. Carroll, I loved the guy's history books. As an added 2 cents, here's my "TL;DR version" of Dr. Carroll's views of Franco:

Franco- So yeah, these Commies are causing alot of trouble. Anybody wanna help a bro out?
Hitler- Yeh bro, here some money n guns n stuff. You want to help conquor the world?
Franco- razzle dazzle story bro. Later though. Gotta go beat Commies.
Hitler- ... wut?
Franco- See ya sucka!
[/quote]
lol that is a great summation of what happened.

January 21, 2012

[img]http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2009/03/423214.jpg[/img]

[From a post on Fr Angelo Geiger's website, MaryVictrix.com ([url="http://maryvictrix.wordpress.com/2011/12/26/i-am-dreaming-of-a-white-propaganda/#comment-7452"]http://maryvictrix.w...a/#comment-7452[/url]) ]

"It is true that the faith is neither liberal nor conservative. But everyone knows that the vast majority of Catholics who support abortion are political liberals and are operating on the principles of modern political liberalism. On the other hand, it is verifiably a fact that the[i] [color=#FF0000][b]traditionalists[/b][/color][/i] with whom I disagree and the growing â€œnon-traditionalistâ€ sympathizers that orbit them are conservatives[i], [color=#FF0000][b]many of them of the radical right-wing stripe.[/b][/color][/i] According to Father (now Bishop) [url="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-2005.1990.tb01413.x/full"]Anthony Fisher[/url], OP, Archbishop Lefebvre himself had links with the counter-revolutionary movement Action FranÃ§aise, and â€œprominent among his supporters and founders have been members of [color=#FF0000][i][b]Europeâ€™s old families[/b][/i][/color] who feel betrayed by a democratizing Church.â€ Father Fisher goes on:
[quote]
Lefebvre had offered as models of the Catholic Church and state Francoâ€™s Spain, Salazarâ€™s Portugal, Galtieriâ€™s Argentina and Pinochetâ€™s Chile. The last hiding place of Paul Touvier, who was quite recently arrested (circa 1990) and committed to trial for crimes against humanity, was a Lefebvrist monastery at Nice.[/quote]

"There are many other examples that would secure the accuracy of my account. The point is that while this may not be homogenously true, it is generally true and establishes a point about which many traditionalist sympathizers are ignorant or simply choose to ignore, or about which they agree because they are also ideologues, namely, that[i][color=#FF0000][i][b] this movement is not simply about liturgy and dogma. It is, on the contrary, a social, cultural and political ideology, one that is elitist and in my view leaning very far toward [u]fascism[/u].[/b][/i][/color][/i]

"I would not be as alarmed by it if those who sympathized with traditionalism were willing to purge their ranks, but that is not really the case. Bishop Williamson did not get thrown overboard until rather recently. Even so, as far as I know, he is still in good standing with the SSPX, even if he has been marginalized. To the extent that Bishop Williamson has been corrected, it is really only because he has become a liability. For example, [url="http://sungenisandthejews.blogspot.com/2009/04/ferrara-repudiates-holocaust-views-of.html"]Christopher Ferrara[/url] has written that if traditionalists find it to be their duty to criticize the magisterium, then they must also criticize their own when necessary: â€œFor to remain silent in the face of what Bishop Williamson has said would be to endanger the entire cause to which we have dedicated ourselves by allowing it to be attached to his errors.â€ All this being said,[i] [color=#FF0000][b]antisemitism[/b][/color][/i] remains the soft, white underbelly of the traditionalist movement. Internal criticism among traditionalists is rare, and then mostly because a lack of such criticism appears to weaken the traditionalist case. But most often it is feared that internal criticism will harm rather than protect traditionalist principles. Indeed, the first comment this post expressed a concern that my criticism of Fellay would do harm to the movement. I submit that honest criticism can never to any real harm. It is only the failure to deal with evil that causes harm.

Edited January 21, 2012 by mortify

January 21, 2012

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1327023772' post='2371733']
That's a false conflation. The question is about Traditionalism not conservative Catholicism. There is an intellectual link between fascism and the Traditional Catholicism that emerged with the counter-Enlightenment. They aren't the same thing but the link are there.
[/quote]
I'm honestly not sure what you're talking about here. The Catholic traditionalism being discussed in this thread refers to Catholics that favor the old Tridentine form of the mass and other sacraments, and a preference for pre-Vatican II religious practices. As it is a post-Vatican II movement, it would have nothing to do with the origins of fascism in the 1920s. You may be referring to the Traditionalists of 1930s Spain who sided with Franco against the Communists, but that is a different than what is usually meant by Catholic traditionalism today.

As Fascism was started in Italy by Benito Mussolini, who was an anti-clerical atheist and admirer of Neitzsche, Fascism's origins were not rooted in Catholic traditionalism.

My remark about liberal Catholics and Communism was not entirely facetious, as plenty of "progressive" Catholics have been involved with Marxism and the "Liberation Theology" movement which supported Marxist revolutionaries. However, much as I despise "liberal Catholicism," it would be just as stupid and inaccurate to to generally call all Catholic liberals Commies as it would be to call Traditionalists in general fascist.

January 21, 2012

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1327040348' post='2371904']
Off topic, but do they happen to be descended from the colonial-era Catholic Carrolls?
[/quote]
Dr. Carroll is not descended from Maryland Carrolls, but his ancestors have lived in Maine since colonial days. Dr. Carroll was actually a convert to the Catholic Faith from a non-religious background.

I'm not sure where Mrs. Carroll's people came from, though I believe she's of Irish descent.

January 21, 2012

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1327076941' post='2372010']
Huzzah for Dr. Carroll, I loved the guy's history books. As an added 2 cents, here's my "TL;DR version" of Dr. Carroll's views of Franco:

Franco- So yeah, these Commies are causing alot of trouble. Anybody wanna help a bro out?
Hitler- Yeh bro, here some money n guns n stuff. You want to help conquor the world?
Franco- razzle dazzle story bro. Later though. Gotta go beat Commies.
Hitler- ... wut?
Franco- See ya sucka!
[/quote]
Yeah, that's a pretty good summary.

I think the problem is that we in America have been conditioned to equate anything fascist with Nazism, and regard it as pure unadulterated evil.

Favoring Franco's forces over the brutally anti-Catholic Communists in the Spanish Civil War does not make one a fascist nor "in love with fascism."

And before jump to condemn Franco for accepting military aid from Hitler and Mussolini, we should keep in mind that we allied with Joseph Stalin, one of history's most brutal and bloodthirsty dictators--who was arguably even worse than Hitler--to defeat Hitler. The messy reality of war is usually not the neat clean story of pure Good vs. pure Evil we like it to be.

Those familiar with Dr. Carroll will know he had a great love for Spain and its Catholic heritage, which the Communists threatened to destroy.

Correction:
[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1327023555' post='2371728']
Technically, the Nazis (Natural Socialists) were a different movement than the Fascists . . .
[/quote]
That should read "[b]National[/b] Socialists."
Not sure what they put in my drink that night.

I feel like an idiot.

January 23, 2012

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRBrjt7z5Cw&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRBrjt7z5Cw&feature=related[/url]

January 23, 2012

Yes, well we certainly shouldn't pray for those who persecute us :rolleyes:

Sign In

Traditionalism & Fascism

17 members have voted

Recommended Posts

mortify

Winchester

4588686

arfink

Laudate_Dominum

Socrates

4588686

Socrates

BigJon16

Socrates

Vincent Vega

arfink

Winchester

Aloysius

mortify

Socrates

Socrates

Socrates

4588686

ardillacid

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in