Rick Santorum Takes Mo, Mn, And Co!

[qfnol31]

If you view voting as voting FOR a specific person, then you're right that voting for a particular person carries the responsibility of voting for that person. In a multi-party system, voting for your candidate might be the best move.

For all intents and purposes, the United States have a two-party system. This means that not only are we voting for the better candidate, we're also voting AGAINST the poorer candidate (this is why dUSt can make his comments above). In such a society where only two candidates are viable, not voting or voting for a third candidate is implicitly accepting whichever candidate wins. If the better of the two wins, then you are culpable for his win insofar as you allowed him to win. If the worse candidate wins, then you are culpable for his win because you did not do everything you could to prevent it. This second outcome carries a greater culpability with it because you allowed it to happen. Again, this assumes that there is both voting FOR a candidate and voting AGAINST a candidate. The USCCB implies that such a vote is possible.

Now there are various reasons not to vote or to vote third party, and many of these are legitimate. However, for them to be the appropriate choice, the goods sought must outweigh the evil permitted (as an aside, this isn't Proportionalism because we're discussing remote material cooperation with evil rather than formal cooperation with evil). The change to American society and lasting outcomes from voting third party or not voting at all must be real, truly possible ends. If you really think that by voting either way will truly bring about change, then go for it. I have yet to see how this is a realistic understanding of our country.

But remember, you are culpable for inaction as much as you are culpable for action. Even if you choose a good act, sometimes you can be culpable for permitting a greater evil to occur rather than trying to prevent it.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1328904831' post='2385083']
I fully discounted every opinion (and fact) that the author presented when I found out that he hotlinked Santorum's name to homophobia. I have sincere and well-founded doubts that Mr. Santorum has an irrational fear of homosexuals.
[/quote]

just as well, i suspect that article was actually satirical, and coudnt find anything to verify it, so deleted it.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1328906039' post='2385097']
just as well, i suspect that article was actually satirical, and coudnt find anything to verify it, so deleted it.
[/quote]
Yeah, I was suspicious when he allegedly called Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden "brand new" heavy metal bands.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1328906039' post='2385097']
just as well, i suspect that article was actually satirical, and coudnt find anything to verify it, so deleted it.
[/quote]My wife is satire-handicapped. It's really funny.

End randomness...

[Winchester]

Thank God imperfect intellect doesn't make one culpable of sin.

[Winchester]

http://www.redstate.com/erick/2012/01/06/what-a-big-government-conservative-looks-like/

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Erick Erickson'][...]but I have no intention of giving up ideological and intellectual consistency in the name of beating Mitt Romney.[/quote]I have no intention of giving up Catholic ideology in the name of conservatism.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1328906438' post='2385111']
Thank God imperfect intellect doesn't make one culpable of sin.
[/quote]Does willful ignorance make one culpable of sin?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' timestamp='1328900026' post='2384988']
The rarified air you're breathing must be pretty nice, but I refuse to betray my own conscience, no matter how many consdescending sneers it gets me.
[/quote]

An analogy...

I am with a group of bad thugs. 1/2 the thugs want to steal a car. 1/2 the thugs want to go kill some homeless people. I am the deciding vote. One of the two things is going to happen no matter what. I can vote to steal a car: a car gets stolen, but nobody is murdered. I can [b]not[/b] vote: there is a 50/50 chance of people being murdered, and even if they are not, the car gets stolen anyway.

[b]My[/b] conscience tells me to protect the lives of those people.

We have different formed consciences. I just tend to believe mine implements a better use of reason.

[Winchester]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1328907005' post='2385118']
Does willful ignorance make one culpable of sin?
[/quote]
I believe that's the teaching.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1328858629' post='2384754']
The implication that somehow gay marriage is worse than torture is blowing my mind right now. I would rather be gay married to some dude against my will than tortured and mutilated.

and thats not even the frickin question!!

Im glad you can so neatly follow the "Catholic [s]paint[/s] vote by numbers" kit, but the fact remains that your views on torture are contrary to what the church teaches. and if the church magically became ok with torture tomorrow, then the Church would be wrong as well.
[/quote]

I was pointing out that abortion and gay marriage are doing far more damage to this country than torture. I notice you keep ignoring abortion and pretend I am only comparing gay marriage and torture. This is false. If you wish to argue my point, argue my full position, and not a straw-man of it. Please explain to me why the issue of torture trumps the current issues of abortion and gay marriage in the United States according to Catholic voting principles.

Also you say my views on torture are contrary to the Church. Really? Where did I say torture was good.....much less justified in some circumstances?

Give my Catholic voting guidelines that prohibit me from endorsing Santorum. I shared some with you, but I haven't really heard back. If you want to yell at me, please at least cite something that overrides my citations. Just ignoring part of my position and yelling at me doesn't lead to constructive discussion.


It seems you and some others are waiting for a pre-appointed saint to run for the presidency, and then you will vote for that person and for only such a person. In this case, you will never vote in your lifetime and will let people like Rick Santorum....people who can do much good with very little bad.....lose because of one minor issue.

This is not Catholic voting, and this is not Catholic responsibility. This is waiting for Jesus to run for president.



[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1328896074' post='2384944']
at the same time - i feel very confused about this election - more so in the past - because of what I have learned here and elsewhere about the Catholic faith.

I hate grey.
[/quote]

So do I.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1328907180' post='2385119']
An analogy...

I am with a group of bad thugs. 1/2 the thugs want to steal a car. 1/2 the thugs want to go kill some homeless people. I am the deciding vote. One of the two things is going to happen no matter what. I can vote to steal a car: a car gets stolen, but nobody is murdered. I can [b]not[/b] vote: there is a 50/50 chance of people being murdered, and even if they are not, the car gets stolen anyway.

[b]My[/b] conscience tells me to protect the lives of those people.

We have different formed consciences. I just tend to believe mine implements a better use of reason.
[/quote]

This is just an example of "the ends justify the means". And they don't.

Let me give you another scenario:

You've been kidnapped somewhere, and are unable to escape. Your captors don't want to kill you; they want you to kill yourself. They want it so much, in fact, that they're willing to kill your family if you don't kill yourself. And they tell you as much. You can be absolutely certain that if you don't kill yourself, they [b]will[/b] kill your familiy.

What do you do? Of course the correct course of action is clear, but I wonder how many here would know it...?

[dUSt]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1328908428' post='2385132']
This is not Catholic voting, and this is not Catholic responsibility. This is waiting for Jesus to run for president.
[/quote]

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1328907180' post='2385119']
An analogy...

I am with a group of bad thugs. 1/2 the thugs want to steal a car. 1/2 the thugs want to go kill some homeless people. I am the deciding vote. One of the two things is going to happen no matter what. I can vote to steal a car: a car gets stolen, but nobody is murdered. I can [b]not[/b] vote: there is a 50/50 chance of people being murdered, and even if they are not, the car gets stolen anyway.

[b]My[/b] conscience tells me to protect the lives of those people.

We have different formed consciences. I just tend to believe mine implements a better use of reason.
[/quote]

<use crazy hypothetical situation while making a poor analogy to the actual topic at hand>

<use the ends to justify the means>

<call it 'reason'>

<forget to mention this mentality is why we are in the mess in the first place>







got it.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1328896074' post='2384944']
at the same time - i feel very confused about this election - more so in the past - because of what I have learned here and elsewhere about the Catholic faith.

I hate grey.
[/quote]I'd give you mad props, if I had any to give. I don't like grey either. Grey is a cop-out in choosing sides. Hence my personal philosophy of palpable ying-yang. You can choose to be either black or white (red or yellow, depending on your color preference), but both are going to coexist in the entirety of reality.

I voted for Santorum in the Florida primaries because I prefered his social positions and knowing little about his fiscal positions. Fisically, I'd lean more towards Ron Paul, but he's too kooky. I voted after 6pm, knowing full well that Romney and Gingrich had twice the votes as Santorum. However, since it's a primary, I considered a vote for Santorum as a vote for his most obvious political issues, social conservatism. The Newt and Mitt have to recogonize the block of voters who didn't vote for either, and adjust their political positions accordingly. Now in the final election between the two canidates, I'll have to choose whom I feel will be the best, or do the least damage. Political change doesn't come about in just 1 election cycle. People's opinoins change in trends. Voters need to make choices based on the longer picture, as best as they can guess. Eventually things will moderate out and move to the border between black or white. You can't convince people to be in your chosen color, you can only choose for yourself where you want to live and accept the reality of where you aren't in control.