Incest And Adam+Eve

[beatitude]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330725092' post='2395424']
I once didn't believe in the whole Jonah and the giant fish then realized that Jesus made reference to it. I don't Jesus would be comparing His death and resurrection to a tale of some sort.
[/quote]

Why wouldn't He? He was a master storyteller. He taught in parables. The parables are just that - tales. But they have all got a deep truth in them.

Just because some books in a library are historical, it doesn't logically follow that every other book has got to be. It's the same with the Bible, which is a compilation of history, theology, philosophy, ethics, even poetry. Every part of it teaches us something significant and every part is sacred, but this does not mean that it is all accurate on a literalistic level. St Augustine was making this point in the fourth century. This is not some modern approach to Scripture.

[Louie]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1330725652' post='2395426']


Why wouldn't He? He was a master storyteller. He taught in parables. The parables are just that - tales. But they have all got a deep truth in them.

Just because some books in a library are historical, it doesn't logically follow that every other book has got to be. It's the same with the Bible, which is a compilation of history, theology, philosophy, ethics, even poetry. Every part of it teaches us something significant and every part is sacred, but this does not mean that it is all accurate on a literalistic level. St Augustine was making this point in the fourth century. This is not some modern approach to Scripture.
[/quote]

Jesus never gave names in the parables nor were they stories in which he was claiming them to be as historical figures but were given as a way of explaining His teachings.

[Louie]

This gives me a great insight to understanding the teachings and beliefs of people on this site. Sad to think that some of you don't take the Word of God as truth inspired by the very breath of God. To think that God would mix tales with truth seems to contradict His own words that He is not a God of confusion and is a shame.

[Louie]

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,  17  that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 

[Archaeology cat]

Louie, we do take it as truth. But that needn't mean it is absolutely literal. For one, that ignores the cultural context, and the fact that Jesus often spoke in parables. The parables are true, but not literally so. There wasn't really a vineyard owner hiring people throughout the day and paying them the same, yet there was, because God is the vineyard owner. It is true, but not literally so.

God bless

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330725092' post='2395424']
How can you say that when Jesus Himself quoted from Genesis speaking from in the beginning and the important declaration that God made to Eve as to her seed. I think it is important to the fact that if one part of the bible is not literally true then the whole in itself cannot be literally true. We need to believe the bible in its whole. My thoughts and my opinion in which I believe in. I once didn't believe in the whole Jonah and the giant fish then realized that Jesus made reference to it. I don't Jesus would be comparing His death and resurrection to a tale of some sort.
[/quote]

Catholics must believe in a literal first man and first woman, that IS a given. However, Genesis is NOT science. Genesis is theology: God made everything, God made man in the image and likeness of God, and gave him dominion of all the earth as stewards of the garden. The first parents sinned, and all Creation was effected by it.History is linear, not an endless cycle of birth and rebirth. God promised to set things right. People spread over the face of the earth.That is the essence of the first 3 chapters of Genesis.
Genesis 4 goes from all of humanity back to the family of Adam, and further sin enters the world.

The ancients didn't know science, so they explained heaven and earth the best way they knew how, that the sky was an inverted bowl over the earth with windows for the sun and moon to travel thru. Stars were attached to the inside, and there were storehouses for snow and rain. This is how the middle-eastern religions explained the sky, and the the sacred writers/editors of the Scriptures did as well. This isn't to say they were wrong, but God works within cultures, and you have to understand their worldview to understand the Scriptures.
To think one can pick up a library of books were the writing/editing started over 2500 years ago without studying context is wrong.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330727507' post='2395436']
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
[/quote]

And where in this sentence does it say its literal history or science? The Bible is a LIBRARY, a collection of history, theology, law, love poetry, parables and mystical writings. Genesis is not one single story, the word itself translates as Beginnings or Origins, not history or science.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330726685' post='2395430']
This gives me a great insight to understanding the teachings and beliefs of people on this site. Sad to think that some of you don't take the Word of God as truth inspired by the very breath of God. To think that God would mix tales with truth seems to contradict His own words that He is not a God of confusion and is a shame.
[/quote]

Then you are clearly mistaken and lack understanding of what we believe.

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution"]http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution[/url]

[Louie]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1330732265' post='2395455']


And where in this sentence does it say its literal history or science? The Bible is a LIBRARY, a collection of history, theology, law, love poetry, parables and mystical writings. Genesis is not one single story, the word itself translates as Beginnings or Origins, not history or science.
[/quote]

Edited March 3, 2012 by Louie

[Selah]

[quote]How can you say that when Jesus Himself quoted from Genesis speaking from in the beginning and the important declaration that God made to Eve as to her seed. I think it is important to the fact that if one part of the bible is not literally true then the whole in itself cannot be literally true. We need to believe the bible in its whole. My thoughts and my opinion in which I believe in. I once didn't believe in the whole Jonah and the giant fish then realized that Jesus made reference to it. I don't Jesus would be comparing His death and resurrection to a tale of some sort. [/quote]

Christ made reference to it because of the story and what it taught; that is, if God tells you to do something, and you run away with it, guess what happens. Christ referencing that story had nothing to do with "guys, this actually happened" and more to do with, "guys, this is what can happen when we run from God." People worrying about whether or not it actually happen miss the point of the stories. The story of Jonah is not literally true, but it is true in that it speaks spiritual truths to us.

[quote]This gives me a great insight to understanding the teachings and beliefs of people on this site. Sad to think that some of you don't take the Word of God as truth inspired by the very breath of God. To think that God would mix tales with truth seems to contradict His own words that He is not a God of confusion and is a shame. [/quote]

Well, that's the thing Louie, we don't see them as "just tales." Tales are meaningless, and the Scriptures are not meaningless. They have meaning and truth in them; but that doesn't mean it is literal truth, but a mysteriological fact. That is, even if it did not happen, the truth is there. I believe the Scriptures to be absolute truth, otherwise I wouldn't be a Christian. However, that does not mean I think they are all literal happenings.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Selah

[Louie]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1330742234' post='2395522']


Christ made reference to it because of the story and what it taught; that is, if God tells you to do something, and you run away with it, guess what happens. Christ referencing that story had nothing to do with "guys, this actually happened" and more to do with, "guys, this is what can happen when we run from God." People worrying about whether or not it actually happen miss the point of the stories. The story of Jonah is not literally true, but it is true in that it speaks spiritual truths to us.
[/quote]

Oh well if that's what you believe then that's what you believe...but I believe it as literally true and believe that Jesus was not one to speak of a person who never existed but was rather a fairy tale. What does your belief say about our Savior? How can you think that our Savior would speak of fairy tales? I couldn't and wouldn't cause then all that He said and done could be an would be questionable. Like I said He is not a God of confusion. Mixing fables and truth is confusion. Think about it. I'm sure your open for correction.

[Louie]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1330742234' post='2395522']


Christ made reference to it because of the story and what it taught; that is, if God tells you to do something, and you run away with it, guess what happens. Christ referencing that story had nothing to do with "guys, this actually happened" and more to do with, "guys, this is what can happen when we run from God." People worrying about whether or not it actually happen miss the point of the stories. The story of Jonah is not literally true, but it is true in that it speaks spiritual truths to us.



Well, that's the thing Louie, we don't see them as "just tales." Tales are meaningless, and the Scriptures are not meaningless. They have meaning and truth in them; but that doesn't mean it is literal truth, but a mysteriological fact. That is, even if it did not happen, the truth is there. I believe the Scriptures to be absolute truth, otherwise I wouldn't be a Christian. However, that does not mean I think they are all literal happenings.
[/quote]

This does not make sense to me. After reading it a couple of times over.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330742624' post='2395526']
Oh well if that's what you believe then that's what you believe...but I believe it as literally true and believe that Jesus was not one to speak of a person who never existed but was rather a fairy tale. What does your belief say about our Savior? How can you think that our Savior would speak of fairy tales? I couldn't and wouldn't cause then all that He said and done could be an would be questionable. Like I said He is not a God of confusion. Mixing fables and truth is confusion. Think about it. I'm sure your open for correction.
[/quote]

So you are saying that a parable is a fairy tale? What is truth?

[Louie]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1330743349' post='2395530']


So you are saying that a parable is a fairy tale? What is truth?
[/quote]

Like I said before He spoke parables to teach certain people to help them understand never referring to the people in them as historical figures with names as the books of the Old Testament does. Plus He explained to His disciples why He spoke in parables.

What is truth? That's what Pilate asked Jesus.

[Selah]

[quote]Oh well if that's what you believe then that's what you believe...but I believe it as literally true and believe that Jesus was not one to speak of a person who never existed but was rather a fairy tale. What does your belief say about our Savior? How can you think that our Savior would speak of fairy tales? I couldn't and wouldn't cause then all that He said and done could be an would be questionable. Like I said He is not a God of confusion. Mixing fables and truth is confusion. Think about it. I'm sure your open for correction. [/quote]

Well, sure. But I never said they were fairy tales, remember. I don't think Christ spoke...or speaks...in fairytales either. Jonah, for instance; just because it may have never happened doesn't make the story any less true; that is, running from God is wrong...that is true, is it not? That is more important, that lesson, much more important, than if their was actually a real Jonah. Also remember, Christ spoke in parables, earthly stories with heavenly meanings. See where I'm going with this? What if Jonah is simply an earthly story with a deeper meaning?

I have a good example I'm mulling over in my head, kind of debating whether or not I should use it.

[quote]This does not make sense to me. After reading it a couple of times over. [/quote]

...what specifically?

[Louie]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1330743718' post='2395535']


Well, sure. But I never said they were fairy tales, remember. I don't think Christ spoke...or speaks...in fairytales either. Jonah, for instance; just because it may have never happened doesn't make the story any less true; that is, running from God is wrong...that is true, is it not? That is more important, that lesson, much more important, than if their was actually a real Jonah. Also remember, Christ spoke in parables, earthly stories with heavenly meanings. See where I'm going with this? What if Jonah is simply an earthly story with a deeper meaning?

I have a good example I'm mulling over in my head, kind of debating whether or not I should use it.



...what specifically?
[/quote]

I just think that the more I believe in the bible as truth literally the more I grow in knowledge of it. If I can only give the many examples of what I mean by this I would but at the moment I can't...will be a W Live at 7:30...tune in if you got the time

Grace and peace to you all!

[cmotherofpirl]

Louie if the psalm says " "With thy arm thou hast redeemed thy people the children of Jacob and of Joseph."
- Psalms 76,16" does this mean God has an arm?

[Hubertus]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330726685' post='2395430']
This gives me a great insight to understanding the teachings and beliefs of people on this site. Sad to think that some of you don't take the Word of God as truth inspired by the very breath of God. To think that God would mix tales with truth seems to contradict His own words that He is not a God of confusion and is a shame.
[/quote] We do take the Word of God as inspired truth. To say that we don't is a false accusation, especially since people have been trying to tell you that the Bible is not a science book, but a story of salvation.


[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330744166' post='2395539']
I just think that the more I believe in the bible as truth literally the more I grow in knowledge of it.
[/quote] If we were intended to take the Bible literally, we would all have already gouged out our eyes and cut off our arms, according to Matt 5:29-30.

Oh, and the universe would look like this:

[img]http://godlessons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/flat-earth1.gif[/img]

[Louie]

Ok then if you don't believe Adam and Eve as actual people in the bible what do you do with the genealogy of Jesus given in Luke where he lines His lineage all the way down to Adam.

The Genealogy of Jesus Christ
    23  Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,  24  the son of Matthat,* the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph,  25  the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai,  26  the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah,  27  the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri,  28  the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er,  29  the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi,  30  the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim,  31  the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David,  32  the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,  33  the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah,  34  the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,  35  the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah,  36  the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,  37  the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan,  38  the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. 

If Adam was not a real person then neither would Jesus be real. There is a problem with that way of thinking. Also there was a firmament that once surrounded the earth that is how they lived so long...it would be like a giant green house...thus being where all the water came from during the flood and how we now have the oceans that be. There is an explanation for the many misunderstanding you may have concerning the stories in the bible. Like I said before when you just believe the bible as the inspired word of God and all of it to be truth...without doubting the things spoken of in it...the things that you question will be given an answer to...when you stop using your human reasoning and allow the spirit to be your teacher...Adam was a real person and so too was Jesus.