Adrestia Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331852806' post='2401454'] On the flip side, perhaps we might have more respect for our flag that we obtained peacefully and without killing anyone. ^_^ Iunno, your idea is compelling but I'm not 100% ready to accept it. [/quote] You said that Americans have more respect for their flag than Canadians. People tend to have more respect for things that they fight for; I agree that a struggle without loss of life would be better. That's beside the point. Canada is a part of the British Commonwealth with Queen Elizabeth II as its monarch, its head of state. The USA fought for freedom from Great Britain. I believe this is why Americans respect the flag more than Canadians.
cmotherofpirl Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331852806' post='2401454'] Like I said, I understand general respect to important symbols. I just perceive the American flag to be a bit anomalous as far as symbols go. In my experience Americans tend to treat their flag differently than any other symbol. Anomalies are interesting. I want to figure out how it works, hence my questioning. The assumption in this thread seems to be that I'm actively disrespecting the American flag. That's not really true. I'd like to understand how the whole idea works. [/quote] [b] I am the Flag[/b] [b] by Ruth Apperson Rous[/b] [color=#000000] [size="4"]I am the flag of the United States of America.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I was born on June 14, 1777, in Philadelphia.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]There the Continental Congress adopted my stars and stripes as the national flag.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]My thirteen stripes alternating red and white, with a union of thirteen white stars in a field of blue, represented a new constellation, a new nation dedicated to the personal and religious liberty of mankind.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]Today fifty stars signal from my union, one for each of the fifty sovereign states in the greatest constitutional republic the world has ever known.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]My colors symbolize the patriotic ideals and spiritual qualities of the citizens of my country.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]My red stripes proclaim the fearless courage and integrity of American men and boys and the self-sacrifice and devotion of American mothers and daughters.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]My white stripes stand for liberty and equality for all.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]My blue is the blue of heaven, loyalty, and faith.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I represent these eternal principles: liberty, justice, and humanity.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I embody American freedom: freedom of speech, religion, assembly, the press, and the sanctity of the home.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I typify that indomitable spirit of determination brought to my land by Christopher Columbus and by all my forefathers - the Pilgrims, Puritans, settlers at James town and Plymouth.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I am as old as my nation.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I am a living symbol of my nation's law: the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I voice Abraham Lincoln's philosophy: "A government of the people, by the people,for the people."[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I stand guard over my nation's schools, the seedbed of good citizenship and true patriotism.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I am displayed in every schoolroom throughout my nation; every schoolyard has a flag pole for my display.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]Daily thousands upon thousands of boys and girls pledge their allegiance to me and my country.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I have my own law—Public Law 829, "The Flag Code" - which definitely states my correct use and display for all occasions and situations.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I have my special day, Flag Day. June 14 is set aside to honor my birth.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]Americans, I am the sacred emblem of your country. I symbolize your birthright, your heritage of liberty purchased with blood and sorrow.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I am your title deed of freedom, which is yours to enjoy and hold in trust for posterity.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]If you fail to keep this sacred trust inviolate, if I am nullified and destroyed, you and your children will become slaves to dictators and despots.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]Eternal vigilance is your price of freedom.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]As you see me silhouetted against the peaceful skies of my country, remind yourself that I am the flag of your country, that I stand for what you are - no more, no less.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]Guard me well, lest your freedom perish from the earth.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]Dedicate your lives to those principles for which I stand: "One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]I was created in freedom. I made my first appearance in a battle for human liberty.[/size][/color][color=#000000] [size="4"]God grant that I may spend eternity in my "land of the free and the home of the brave" and that I shall ever be known as "Old Glory," the flag of the United States of America.[/size][/color]
franciscanheart Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331852806' post='2401454'] On the flip side, perhaps we might have more respect for our flag that we obtained peacefully and without killing anyone. ^_^ Iunno, your idea is compelling but I'm not 100% ready to accept it. "It's not very becoming. In fact, I have lost a portion of what little respect I had for you with that comment." What, we can't make jokes about Obama? I really don't respect him, and a bit of levity is generally appreciated. "Does your status as a non-American really have anything to do with it? Humor me here and think about that for a minute. If you were born in America, do you think you'd have a greater respect for your flag or any other flag?" I thought it was pretty relevant, yeah. I'm assuming it's one of those things where you have to live it to understand. That's why I've tried to be pretty clear that I don't understand the subject, coming from an outsider position. I thought that was fairly reasonable. "Yes, my flag represents a great deal (as every American learns at some point in his or her life). I have a natural inclination toward strong attachment, but I think even without it, I would still feel very strongly about respect for the flag. (I do believe every citizen of every country should show respect to his or her flag.)" Like I said, I understand general respect to important symbols. I just perceive the American flag to be a bit anomalous as far as symbols go. In my experience Americans tend to treat their flag differently than any other symbol. Anomalies are interesting. I want to figure out how it works, hence my questioning. The assumption in this thread seems to be that I'm actively disrespecting the American flag. That's not really true. I'd like to understand how the whole idea works. [/quote] I am now away from a desktop computer but will respond later tonight if I am able.
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1331853582' post='2401460'] You said that Americans have more respect for their flag than Canadians. People tend to have more respect for things that they fight for; I agree that a struggle without loss of life would be better. That's beside the point. Canada is a part of the British Commonwealth with Queen Elizabeth II as its monarch, its head of state. The USA fought for freedom from Great Britain. I believe this is why Americans respect the flag more than Canadians. [/quote] We're part of the Commonwealth, but a sovereign nation in every respect. Anyway, that's also beside the point. Yeah, like I said that's a compelling explanation. Would you say that the revolutionary war is still "fresh in the mind" of the collective American psyche? [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331853653' post='2401461'] [b] I am the Flag[/b] [b] by Ruth Apperson Rous[/b] [color=#000000][size=4]I am the flag of the United States of America.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I was born on June 14, 1777, in Philadelphia.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]There the Continental Congress adopted my stars and stripes as the national flag.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]My thirteen stripes alternating red and white, with a union of thirteen white stars in a field of blue, represented a new constellation, a new nation dedicated to the personal and religious liberty of mankind.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]Today fifty stars signal from my union, one for each of the fifty sovereign states in the greatest constitutional republic the world has ever known.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]My colors symbolize the patriotic ideals and spiritual qualities of the citizens of my country.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]My red stripes proclaim the fearless courage and integrity of American men and boys and the self-sacrifice and devotion of American mothers and daughters.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]My white stripes stand for liberty and equality for all.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]My blue is the blue of heaven, loyalty, and faith.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I represent these eternal principles: liberty, justice, and humanity.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I embody American freedom: freedom of speech, religion, assembly, the press, and the sanctity of the home.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I typify that indomitable spirit of determination brought to my land by Christopher Columbus and by all my forefathers - the Pilgrims, Puritans, settlers at James town and Plymouth.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I am as old as my nation.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I am a living symbol of my nation's law: the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I voice Abraham Lincoln's philosophy: "A government of the people, by the people,for the people."[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I stand guard over my nation's schools, the seedbed of good citizenship and true patriotism.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I am displayed in every schoolroom throughout my nation; every schoolyard has a flag pole for my display.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]Daily thousands upon thousands of boys and girls pledge their allegiance to me and my country.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I have my own law—Public Law 829, "The Flag Code" - which definitely states my correct use and display for all occasions and situations.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I have my special day, Flag Day. June 14 is set aside to honor my birth.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]Americans, I am the sacred emblem of your country. I symbolize your birthright, your heritage of liberty purchased with blood and sorrow.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I am your title deed of freedom, which is yours to enjoy and hold in trust for posterity.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]If you fail to keep this sacred trust inviolate, if I am nullified and destroyed, you and your children will become slaves to dictators and despots.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]Eternal vigilance is your price of freedom.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]As you see me silhouetted against the peaceful skies of my country, remind yourself that I am the flag of your country, that I stand for what you are - no more, no less.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]Guard me well, lest your freedom perish from the earth.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]Dedicate your lives to those principles for which I stand: "One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]I was created in freedom. I made my first appearance in a battle for human liberty.[/size][/color] [color=#000000][size=4]God grant that I may spend eternity in my "land of the free and the home of the brave" and that I shall ever be known as "Old Glory," the flag of the United States of America.[/size][/color] [/quote] Interesting. Very succinct. And so does that imply that when the state itself fails to uphold those ideals, that the flag as a symbol retains its original meaning? Or does the flag as a symbol take on new meanings as the nation it represents changes?
cmotherofpirl Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 The American flag flies on our public buildings and at our homes.Kids says the Pledge to it every day. It represents our ideals, our hopes and our dreams for this country. It represents every American who fought or died for this country. It represents freedom for every immigrant traveling here from all over the world. If you are traveling it represents home.
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331854344' post='2401469'] The American flag flies on our public buildings and at our homes.Kids says the Pledge to it every day. It represents our ideals, our hopes and our dreams for this country. It represents every American who fought or died for this country. It represents freedom for every immigrant traveling here from all over the world. If you are traveling it represents home. [/quote] Does it represent the current nation, or the idealized nation?
cmotherofpirl Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 Both. Very few things in life have a singular meaning.
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331854620' post='2401472'] Both. Very few things in life have a singular meaning. [/quote] So inasmuch as it does represent the current State, wouldn't that imply that it's acceptable to use the flag in some form of protest? Edited March 15, 2012 by Nihil Obstat
Adrestia Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331854025' post='2401463'] We're part of the Commonwealth, but a sovereign nation in every respect. Anyway, that's also beside the point. Yeah, like I said that's a compelling explanation. Would you say that the revolutionary war is still "fresh in the mind" of the collective American psyche? [/quote] What does "fresh in the mind" mean? My instinct is to say no, it is not. However, an event does not have to be "fresh in the mind" of a person to affect that person's perspective. Cultural norms develop from events - so many generations later an individual person may not know exactly why something is done a certain way. For some the flag represents more current events. I have family members that fled to the USA during the Vietnam War. For them the flag represents their new found freedom.
Nihil Obstat Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1331854995' post='2401476'] What does "fresh in the mind" mean? My instinct is to say no, it is not. However, an event does not have to be "fresh in the mind" of a person to affect that person's perspective. Cultural norms develop from events - so many generations later an individual person may not know exactly why something is done a certain way. For some the flag represents more current events. I have family members that fled to the USA during the Vietnam War. For them the flag represents their new found freedom. [/quote] Iunno, however you want to interpret that. Collective psyche is a nebulous term anyway. Essentially, do people think about it? Directly or indirectly? From what country did your family members emigrate?
Adrestia Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331855113' post='2401479'] Iunno, however you want to interpret that. Collective psyche is a nebulous term anyway. Essentially, do people think about it? Directly or indirectly? [/quote] Some do, some don't. I can't answer that for the population at large. [quote] From what country did your family members emigrate? [/quote] Relevance?
Nihil Obstat Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1331855727' post='2401491'] Relevance? [/quote] You mentioned the Vietnam war. I was wondering if they perhaps emigrated from a communist bloc country.
i<3LSOP Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331832828' post='2401229'] I mean offense. [/quote] Well I mean it too... I just don't want to get in trouble.
Nihil Obstat Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='i<3LSOP' timestamp='1331856547' post='2401510'] Well I mean it too... I just don't want to get in trouble. [/quote] Some people get uptight sometimes.
Lil Red Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 off-topic posts moved here: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/119780-off-topic-posts-from-flag-thread/
Adrestia Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331856062' post='2401497'] You mentioned the Vietnam war. I was wondering if they perhaps emigrated from a communist bloc country. [/quote] Ahh. My Vietnamese relatives are so by way of marriage. The piece of the story that I heard is that they were taken in by nuns/sisters during the war. My parents and I came to the USA from the Caribbean.
Nihil Obstat Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 I<3LSOP is such a rebel. [img]http://ballzmontreal.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/g20-protests-g20-protest-003.jpg[/img][quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1331858007' post='2401540'] Ahh. My Vietnamese relatives are so by way of marriage. The piece of the story that I heard is that they were taken in by nuns/sisters during the war. My parents and I came to the USA from the Caribbean. [/quote] Ah, I see. So it was a country in the Caribbean that's significantly less free than the US?
Adrestia Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331858097' post='2401542'] Ah, I see. So it was a country in the Caribbean that's significantly less free than the US? [/quote] I wouldn't say so; but, to my knowledge, it was worse (freedom-wise) when my parents decided to leave. There were other issues too. Not sure what this has to do with respecting the flag.
Nihil Obstat Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1331859431' post='2401569'] I wouldn't say so; but, to my knowledge, it was worse (freedom-wise) when my parents decided to leave. There were other issues too. Not sure what this has to do with respecting the flag. [/quote] I don't personally think staying on topic is all it's cracked up to be. ^_^ Conversations evolve. I met a lot of people through junior high and high school who left Columbia for Canada, all around the same time. I guess things got pretty violent for Catholics especially at some point in the recent past.
MissScripture Posted March 16, 2012 Posted March 16, 2012 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331852806' post='2401454'] The assumption in this thread seems to be that I'm actively disrespecting the American flag. That's not really true. I'd like to understand how the whole idea works. [/quote] People may feel like you are being disrespectful because of your first post in this thread, in which you said, [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331783363' post='2400960'] I want to fly the Vatican flag over an upside down American flag. [/quote]
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