Non-catholic Arguments

[dairygirl4u2c]

I'd like to ask some Catholics here to state some non-Catholic apologetics. Just to make sure you understand their best arguments and not just what you've created in your mind. I'm sure you feel this would be good the other way around so maybe you can try this with some non-Catholics here (me, lumberjack, etc) But for now, we're focusing on this thread. So for instance:

1.) What would a non-Catholic say about the authority of the Pope?

2.) What would a non-Catholic say about faith vs. works?

3.) What would a non-Catholic say about the Last Supper's significance?

4.) What would a non-Catholic say about the significance of Mary?

[cmotherofpirl]

This probably depends on which non-Catholic you are talking to and what particular spin their group put on each of these subjects.


Somehow I doubt all the converts here would have created their particular groups spin in their own mind.

Nice try

[KennC]

Based on what I have seen on these boards

1.) What would a non-Catholic say about the authority of the Pope?
.. you're not the boss of me!

2.) What would a non-Catholic say about faith vs. works?
.. I don't have to do anything!

3.) What would a non-Catholic say about the Last Supper's significance?
.. so what about it!

4.) What would a non-Catholic say about the significance of Mary?
.. she's no better than I am!

.. just the impression I'm left with!

Peace of Christ, Ken

Edited May 6, 2004 by KennC

[Hananiah]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 6 2004, 07:48 AM'] I'd like to ask some Catholics here to state some non-Catholic apologetics. [/quote]
The answers to these questions would be different depending upon which Protestant was doing the answering. I suppose I'll get in character as Eric Svendsen and answer as he would.

[quote]1.) What would a non-Catholic say about the authority of the Pope?[/quote]
The unique authority of Peter conferred in Matt 16:18 was not transferred to all his successors, the bishops of Rome. The bishops of Rome were originally just church leaders who had authority over their own jurisdictions, like modern day Protestant pastors. Sometime between Clement (who taught justification by faith alone) and the reformation the bishops of Rome got power hungry, usurped the authrority of others, and apostatized. For centuries they have been heretics and wolves in sheep's clothing, leading countless unwitting souls into perdition by teaching rank Mariolatry and a false gospel.

[quote]2.) What would a non-Catholic say about faith vs. works?[/quote]
We are justified by grace alone through faith alone. Works follow as a result from justification, but anyone who believes they are a cause of justifiaction has embraced a false gospel.

[quote]3.) What would a non-Catholic say about the Last Supper's significance?[/quote]
It is a good and holy tradition wherein Christ is spiritually present, as he is in prayer. The papists have turned it into an abomination in the eyes of God by making it into an ever repeated, never perfecting sacrifice which can never take away sins. The mass is a blasphemy against the work of Christ which was wholly and completely finished in the past.

[quote]4.) What would a non-Catholic say about the significance of Mary?[/quote]
Because I understand Koine Greek prepositions better than native speakers of Koine Greek like Athanasius, I have determined that the preposition heos hou, between the years 100BC and 100AD, always terminated the action of the main clause of a sentence. Hence Mary had other children with Joseph after Jesus. She was just a woman, not the fourth person of the Trinity!

[dUSt]

[quote]1.) What would a non-Catholic say about the authority of the Pope?[/quote]
[b]Generic Protestant Answer:[/b] The pope has no authority. Jesus Christ is our only authority, and He granted us all the ability to follow His word according to the Bible with the help of the Holy Spirit.

[quote]2.) What would a non-Catholic say about faith vs. works?[/quote]
[b]Generic Protestant Answer:[/b] We are saved by faith, and not our works. Works are a result of our faith, but have no bearing on whether or not we get into heaven.

[quote]3.) What would a non-Catholic say about the Last Supper's significance?[/quote]
[b]Generic Protestant Answer:[/b] This is where Christ instructed us to do communion in remembrance of Him. He was not speaking literally, but symbolically.

[quote]4.) What would a non-Catholic say about the significance of Mary?[/quote]
[b]Generic Protestant Answer:[/b] Mary should be respected and honored as the mother of Jesus, but she has no role in our salvation.

It's hard to get really specific unless you tell us specifically which non-Catholic denomination you're talking about. If you're a non-Catholic who believes in Christ, your beliefs could really be anything from the Baptist distinctives to the Jehovah Witnesses to the Mormans to the Lutherans to the Branch Davidians to the guy who sits in his living room, never picks up a Bible and believes that as long as he believes in God he's got a one way ticket to heaven.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Thanks Hananiah! Yours was the best. dUST yours was good too, just a little too generic. KennC, just based on what you've said, I think you've just created in your mind non-Catholics animosity to their beliefs instead of choosing their best arguments. I guess I should have stressed more the word "best", "What are the "best" non-Catholic, non-generic arguments you have heard in regards to those questions?" Cmother and everyone else, also had I stressed this we'd have avoided getting distracted with pointing out how many different beliefs there are.

Remember to give your best material and don't drag up obviously ridiculous claims. Use their claims and/or proofs too if possible. (remember the best!) I'm just checkin to see if you think there are any decent arguments against the Catholic Church. Of course there are some ridiculous claims out there and a lot of variety, but if there are arguments to each of those questions, then the Catholic Church may not stand as you think it does.

[quote]Because I understand Koine Greek prepositions better than native speakers of Koine Greek like Athanasius, I have determined that the preposition heos hou, between the years 100BC and 100AD, always terminated the action of the main clause of a sentence. Hence Mary had other children with Joseph after Jesus. She was just a woman, not the fourth person of the Trinity! [/quote]

Also, I note the sarcasm in this verse in particular. Do those people of which you speak who are arrogant think that the brother means brother in our sense of the word? I'm just curious in layman's terms what they are arguing. Also, it is probably true what the Catholic Church teaches in regards to the fact that it probably means both cousin AND brother. But is there a possibility it could mean brother in our sense of the word?

(Also I just want to note that just because something is possible does not mean we should follow it. I realize that when something is clearly probable we should follow it. Or if it's uncertain, then...)

Edited May 6, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[traichuoi]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 6 2004, 11:27 AM'] Also, just based on what you've said, I think you've just created what you think non-Catholics belief instead of choosing their best arguments. I guess I should have asked, "What are the "best" non-Catholic arguments you have heard in regards to those questions?"

[/quote]
to me there are no "best" non-Catholic arguments because they can all be refuted...so how can there be a best?

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]to me there are no "best" non-Catholic arguments because they can all be refuted...so how can there be a best? [/quote]

Just since many will probably say this. Given that they may all be able to be refuted, that doesn't mean there can't be a best. Perhaps you think they are all equally ridiculous claims, but it's unlikely that there isn't at least one "best" out of them all. Again, I'm tryin to see if you truly know the opposition's best material.

Edited May 6, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[the lumberjack]

[quote]1.) What would a non-Catholic say about the authority of the Pope?[/quote]

if the pope were not held to be "kind of" your "earthly king" which is a direct quotation from someone here...I might recognize him as some type of authority. if the pope were not dressed in such ornate vestments and regaled as some kind of spiritual phenomenon, I might recognize him as some type of authority. if the pope were not declared as infallible, i might recognize him as some type of authority. if the pope were not declared to be the "vicar of Christ"...which is by far the largest of reasons I don't recognize the pope as the leader of my faith.

[quote]2.) What would a non-Catholic say about faith vs. works?[/quote]

good works for a christian come from faith...never have I said otherwise...yes, good works can come from elsewhere, like our wanting to justify ourselves before God, but that is when our works are in vain. works come from faith, not the other way around...

[quote]3.) What would a non-Catholic say about the Last Supper's significance?[/quote]

it is a solemn, spiritual rememberance in where we do remember the death of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ...we do not partake of His sacrifice over and over, we do not continue to sacrifice that which was sacrificed once and for all. His sacrifice for us was made 2000 years ago, and is felt throughout time. His blood and broken body are a redemptive covering that atoned for ALL sins, past, present, and future...

[quote]4.) What would a non-Catholic say about the significance of Mary?[/quote]

she is blessed among women, and was a very important vessel in God's will...I thank the Lord for her...but I also thank the Lord for Mary Magdelene, who washed the Lord's feet with her tears and hair... and for every other vessel that the Lord has used to accomplish His will. she was human, like the rest of us, and died like a human...

and these are the beliefs held by 99.9987% of all the "noncatholics" I know and fellowship with.

God bless.

[Jake Huether]

[quote]if the pope were not held to be "kind of" your "earthly king" which is a direct quotation from someone here...I might recognize him as some type of authority. if the pope were not dressed in such ornate vestments and regaled as some kind of spiritual phenomenon, I might recognize him as some type of authority. if the pope were not declared as infallible, i might recognize him as some type of authority. if the pope were not declared to be the "vicar of Christ"...which is by far the largest of reasons I don't recognize the pope as the leader of my faith.[/quote]


Why don't you form your opinion on what he has done? Have you read any of his books, or even his biography. The man is a living Saint.

Why do you rely on the way he dresses, or what others have to say about him?

Find out who he is. Then comment.

[dUSt]

[quote]if the pope were not declared to be the "vicar of Christ"...which is by far the largest of reasons I don't recognize the pope as the leader of my faith.[/quote]
How do you define "vicar of Christ"?

[quote]good works for a christian come from faith...never have I said otherwise...yes, good works can come from elsewhere, like our wanting to justify ourselves before God, but that is when our works are in vain.  works come from faith, not the other way around...[/quote]
Who said it's the other way around? The Church doesn't teach that we receive faith through our works.

[quote]we do not partake of His sacrifice over and over, we do not continue to sacrifice that which was sacrificed once and for all. [/quote]
If you still think Catholics teach this, then phatmass is doing you no good at all.

[quote]His sacrifice for us was made 2000 years ago, and is felt throughout time.  His blood and broken body are a redemptive covering that atoned for ALL sins, past, present, and future...[/quote]
His sacrifice is beyond time--it has no boundaries. To say that it was a single act that happened 2000 years ago is limiting it's transcendence--it's timelessness.

[quote]she was human, like the rest of us, and died like a human... [/quote]
Did Christ not promise us eternal life?

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

The thing is...all Catholics believe in the same Truth...Not all Protestants believe in the same Truth...

Some protestants believe the Eucharist is more than just symbolic, and some protestants believe Mary is Holy...So to say what are some "non-Catholic apologetics" is hard to answer. Because if Protestants don't believe in One Church, then to generalize what all Protestants/Non-Catholics argue is kind of difficult, because it varies. But I would say most Non-Catholics say that Christ didn't institute the Catholic Church, but a Christian Church. (Yes, The original Christian Church, which happened to be Catholic.)

I would say that any arguement accussing the Catholic Church as anything less than The Bride of Christ is useless. It is fact that the Catholic Church was Instituted by Christ, and He LOVED Her.

"Husband love your wives as Christ loved the Church."

Pax et Agape per Maria, Andy

JMJ

[Mickey's_Girl]

[quote]The thing is...all Catholics believe in the same Truth...Not all Protestants believe in the same Truth...[/quote]

Just a clarification, before this grows into a random tangent:

The Catholic Church [b]teaches [/b]One Truth; not all claiming the name "Catholic" actually believe that one truth (for instance, the issue of contraception).

Right?

MG

Edited May 6, 2004 by Mickey's_Girl

[phatcatholic]

dairygirl,

when you get a chance, please respond to my last post in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=8661&st=75"][b]this thread[/b][/url]. thank you.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Katholikos]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 6 2004, 07:48 AM'] I'd like to ask some Catholics here to state some non-Catholic apologetics. Just to make sure you understand their best arguments and not just what you've created in your mind. I'm sure you feel this would be good the other way around so maybe you can try this with some non-Catholics here (me, lumberjack, etc) But for now, we're focusing on this thread. So for instance:

1.) What would a non-Catholic say about the authority of the Pope?

2.) What would a non-Catholic say about faith vs. works?

3.) What would a non-Catholic say about the Last Supper's significance?

4.) What would a non-Catholic say about the significance of Mary? [/quote]
This is another spider-and-the-fly thread.

Fact: There are thousands of Protestant denominations, and they each think their own conflicting and competing answers to these same questions are "best." No Protestant is going to admit, "Well, I believe doctrine X, but it's not the best argument." "Best" is a relative, subjective judgment.

Would we be Catholics if we thought any of the arguments we have given you can withstand the tests of history and logic? Of course not.

Fact: TRUTH is the best argument.

The Protestant basis for belief is Luther's 66-book cut version of the Bible, twisted to their own private interpretation.

Fact: The Church founded by Christ wrote the New Testament and then formed the Bible when she was nearly 400 years old. The locus of Catholic faith is in the Church which produced the Bble.

Some difference, don'tchathink?

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[the lumberjack]

oh likos, ever the astute one.

your hardpressed, Catholic Church stamp of unapproval just enlightened me so much.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 6 2004, 01:18 PM']
if the pope were not held to be "kind of" your "earthly king" which is a direct quotation from someone here...I might recognize him as some type of authority. if the pope were not dressed in such ornate vestments and regaled as some kind of spiritual phenomenon, I might recognize him as some type of authority. if the pope were not declared as infallible, i might recognize him as some type of authority. if the pope were not declared to be the "vicar of Christ"...which is by far the largest of reasons I don't recognize the pope as the leader of my faith.



good works for a christian come from faith...never have I said otherwise...yes, good works can come from elsewhere, like our wanting to justify ourselves before God, but that is when our works are in vain. works come from faith, not the other way around...



it is a solemn, spiritual rememberance in where we do remember the death of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ...we do not partake of His sacrifice over and over, we do not continue to sacrifice that which was sacrificed once and for all. His sacrifice for us was made 2000 years ago, and is felt throughout time. His blood and broken body are a redemptive covering that atoned for ALL sins, past, present, and future...



she is blessed among women, and was a very important vessel in God's will...I thank the Lord for her...but I also thank the Lord for Mary Magdelene, who washed the Lord's feet with her tears and hair... and for every other vessel that the Lord has used to accomplish His will. she was human, like the rest of us, and died like a human...

and these are the beliefs held by 99.9987% of all the "noncatholics" I know and fellowship with.

God bless. [/quote]
We're writing, but you're not reading. We're talking, but you're not listening.

What we've told you might as well have been written in invisible ink. You still misrepresent Catholic belief.

Your mind seems to be made up as to what Catholics believe, whether its true or not.

You prefer fiction to fact.

As Our Lord said, "He who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt 11:15 KJV).

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ. It was the first Church, and it's the right Church.

Peace to you and to those "non-Catholics" you "fellowship" with. Please invite them to phatmass.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 6 2004, 12:27 PM'] Also, I note the sarcasm in this verse in particular. Do those people of which you speak who are arrogant think that the brother means brother in our sense of the word? I'm just curious in layman's terms what they are arguing. Also, it is probably true what the Catholic Church teaches in regards to the fact that it probably means both cousin AND brother. But is there a possibility it could mean brother in our sense of the word? [/quote]
Yes, Eric Svendsen does believe that adelphos means only biological siblings in Biblical Greek. However, the argument I was referencing is his doctoral thesis about the Greek preposition heos hou, which is translated as until in Matt 1:25: "...but kept her a virgin until (heos hou) she gave birth to a Son; and he
called His name Jesus.”

All heos hou is saying here is that Joseph did not have sex with Mary during her pregnancy. Whether or not they had sex afterward in indeterminate; heos hou leaves either possibility open. However, Svendsen believes that around 100BC the meaning of heos hou switched such that, between then and 100AD, it always terminated the action of the main clause of the sentence. So, in his reading, the passage would necessarily mean that they had intercourse after Jesus was born.

His reading has been refuted many times over. There are numerous examples of usage of heos hou in literature of the time period where it clearly does not terminate the action of the main clause. My favorite is the story of Jospeh and Aseneth, which says that a woman cried until (heos hou) the sun went down, and kept crying after (no termination there!).

[Ellenita]

[quote]I'm just checkin to see if you think there are any decent arguments against the Catholic Church. Of course there are some ridiculous claims out there and a lot of variety, but if there are arguments to each of those questions, then the Catholic Church may not stand as you think it does.[/quote]

The Catholic church contains the fullness of Truth.
Why would you even ask if we think there are 'decent arguments' against her truth. You imply that we have no minds of our own and have accepted blindly without having come to understand, using our full intellect, aswell as faith, that her claims are Truth. How you can suggest that, given the weight of intellectual apologetics you have had access to at Phatmass, and the evidence of some of the greatest intellectual minds ever in history being convinced that the claims made by the Catholic church are the truth, is astounding!

You also seek to undermine our faith by suggesting that if we accept that there are 'decent arguments' then our church 'may not stand as you think it does'. You forget that many of us [i]were[/i] protestants. While we might acknowledge that our time in those churches taught us something of the Lord, the fact that we believe that the fullness of Truth was missing within protestant teaching is what drove us to seek out the 'One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...'

[Katholikos]

Ellenita: <applause applause>