Dave Posted May 7, 2004 Posted May 7, 2004 [quote name='Ellenita' date='May 6 2004, 07:44 PM'] The Catholic church contains the fullness of Truth. Why would you even ask if we think there are 'decent arguments' against her truth. You imply that we have no minds of our own and have accepted blindly without having come to understand, using our full intellect, aswell as faith, that her claims are Truth. How you can suggest that, given the weight of intellectual apologetics you have had access to at Phatmass, and the evidence of some of the greatest intellectual minds ever in history being convinced that the claims made by the Catholic church are the truth, is astounding! You also seek to undermine our faith by suggesting that if we accept that there are 'decent arguments' then our church 'may not stand as you think it does'. You forget that many of us [i]were[/i] protestants. While we might acknowledge that our time in those churches taught us something of the Lord, the fact that we believe that the fullness of Truth was missing within protestant teaching is what drove us to seek out the 'One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...' [/quote] Ellenita should be Church Miltant. dUSt? You reading this?
Ellenita Posted May 15, 2004 Posted May 15, 2004 Dave, you've always been one of my most favourite people at Phatmass! :wub:
Dave Posted May 16, 2004 Posted May 16, 2004 [quote name='Ellenita' date='May 15 2004, 06:36 PM'] Dave, you've always been one of my most favourite people at Phatmass! :wub: [/quote] Now it's my turn to Thank you; you're a great lady yourself!
Livin_the_MASS Posted May 16, 2004 Posted May 16, 2004 Wow you can feel the love in this thread, nice! :wub:
littleflower+JMJ Posted May 16, 2004 Posted May 16, 2004 [quote name='Ellenita' date='May 6 2004, 06:44 PM'] The Catholic church contains the fullness of Truth. Why would you even ask if we think there are 'decent arguments' against her truth. You imply that we have no minds of our own and have accepted blindly without having come to understand, using our full intellect, aswell as faith, that her claims are Truth. How you can suggest that, given the weight of intellectual apologetics you have had access to at Phatmass, and the evidence of some of the greatest intellectual minds ever in history being convinced that the claims made by the Catholic church are the truth, is astounding! You also seek to undermine our faith by suggesting that if we accept that there are 'decent arguments' then our church 'may not stand as you think it does'. You forget that many of us [i]were[/i] protestants. While we might acknowledge that our time in those churches taught us something of the Lord, the fact that we believe that the fullness of Truth was missing within protestant teaching is what drove us to seek out the 'One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...' [/quote] [b]wow.[/b] that was beautiful, amazing and [b]true[/b].
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 17, 2004 Author Posted May 17, 2004 (edited) Even if they are all royally stupid, there's gotta be some best arguments. If the sky is blue and someone says it not, you could at least use an argument that he thinks your eyes decieve you if you put this thread in that context. No one yet has really attempted anything which leads me to believe that you content yourself with knowing that your faith can be defended. (but not proven) I hate to say it, but the very thing most of you put down here you are yourselves espousing. ie you're relying way to much on your emotions. You have to have the truth.. everyone else has to be wrong and you have to be right. Anything that might indicate otherwise, even if it's explainable, isn't even apparently in Catholic thought (that they will admit anyway) and is best suppressed in denial. Someone can say something that doesn't prove anything, just soundbites, and everyone's like so yea. Look back at all these threads and see what I mean. btw, I will be more than happy to do one of these threads "catholic arguments" and I will actually answer the questions and explain why the do not stand. (but the main thing is I will answer the questions) Edited May 17, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c
Katholikos Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 17 2004, 08:21 AM'] Even if they are all royally stupid, there's gotta be some best arguments. If the sky is blue and someone says it not, you could at least use an argument that he thinks your eyes decieve you if you put this thread in that context. No one yet has really attempted anything which leads me to believe that you content yourself with knowing that your faith can be defended. (but not proven) I hate to say it, but the very thing most of you put down here you are yourselves espousing. ie you're relying way to much on your emotions. You have to have the truth.. everyone else has to be wrong and you have to be right. Anything that might indicate otherwise, even if it's explainable, isn't even apparently in Catholic thought (that they will admit anyway) and is best suppressed in denial. Someone can say something that doesn't prove anything, just soundbites, and everyone's like so yea. Look back at all these threads and see what I mean. btw, I will be more than happy to do one of these threads "catholic arguments" and I will actually answer the questions and explain why the do not stand. (but the main thing is I will answer the questions) [/quote] DG. A basic lesson in word meanings: Good - better - best: a comparative, subjective judgement of the relative value of something. True, true, and true - objectively true, whether one thinks it is or not. Not sort of" true, but TRUE. Catholicism is either true or it isn't true. Period. Millions of brilliant minds more astute than yours or mine have found it to be true. It's not "best," as if there were a choice between it and some other religion. Catholicism is God-made, by the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Therefore, it is objectively True. Your religion (from among thousands of competing and conflicting opinions) is not true. Therefore, one can say that in one's personal judgment that this is best, or better than that, but it's subjective opinion, not Truth. All Protestant religions are made by man. JMJ Likos (Jay)
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 17, 2004 Author Posted May 17, 2004 Maybe it'd help if I gave an example. Say you think the best argument is that while we have all this proof for the Catholic Church's validity, perhaps all the dissenting evidence was burned by some pope in time. It's a weak argument, I agree. There are better arguments than this, but no one here gives any of them and I want to see if they do. Many astute minds have not bought into the Catholic Church either. Citing smart guys isn't gonna get you anywhere cuz there's smart guys in every walk of life. Even if the arguments are stupid, please, again, state some. Even if the Catholic Church is objectively true.. in fact I'll grant you that for the sake of argument... now point out why all the smart guys who don't by into the Catholic Church don't buy into it. Point out the logical fallacies. Point out the fact that they are denying what is obvious such as someone denying that they exist. Point out that they are denying historical fact. (if you think that's really the case) If it's a formidable/subtle (just not obivously bad ones) heresy that has been defeated, mention it, and you can even say why it doesn't hold water if you want. But please someone say SOMETHING to answer the questions! :ph34r:
phatcatholic Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 i have yet to see the point of this entire exercise....
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 17, 2004 Author Posted May 17, 2004 (edited) How can you not see the point of this exercise? This is the inter-faith dialouge is it not? And didn't I state my purpose in my opening thread? [quote]Just to make sure you understand their best arguments and not just what you've created in your mind.[/quote] I am trying to point out the ignorance on part of the majority of Catholics here and am open to pointing out my ignorance as well. This exercise is a way to get them to think about what it is they believe and why others don't believe it. Maybe they'll look for some arguments against the Catholic Church to refute them and discover some things along the way. It should get them to realize that while their faith can be defended, so can many others, and they should reexamine their ignorance if that is the case. Perhaps it can be defended, but not proven. I am not saying you are all blatantly ignorant, this is just to explore other faiths better since that is the purpose of this thread. And I know for a fact that some of you know more than I do and know the non Catholic arguments better than I do too. Since we'll all agree that that's the case, that you know the arguments better, to all the smart guys, now state 'em. Edited May 17, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c
Livin_the_MASS Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='May 17 2004, 12:29 PM']Maybe it'd help if I gave an example. Say you think the best argument is that while we have all this proof for the Catholic Church's validity, perhaps all the dissenting evidence was burned by some pope in time. It's a weak argument, I agree. There are better arguments than this, but no one here gives any of them and I want to see if they do. Many astute minds have not bought into the Catholic Church either. Citing smart guys isn't gonna get you anywhere cuz there's smart guys in every walk of life. Even if the arguments are stupid, please, again, state some. Even if the Catholic Church is objectively true.. in fact I'll grant you that for the sake of argument... now point out why all the smart guys who don't by into the Catholic Church don't buy into it. Point out the logical fallacies. Point out the fact that they are denying what is obvious such as someone denying that they exist. Point out that they are denying historical fact. (if you think that's really the case) If it's a formidable/subtle (just not obivously bad ones) heresy that has been defeated, mention it, and you can even say why it doesn't hold water if you want. But please someone say SOMETHING to answer the questions! :ph34r:[/quote] dairygirl4u2c, You are going about this the wrong way. Why point out what you "think" is false? Number one the Catholic Church teaches nothing false 100% Truth, some can accept it, some can't. I pray all come to accept the beautiful Truth of the Catholic Church Why focus on problems? When Christ established His Catholic Church He did so with the [b]weeds and the wheat together.[/b] Indivdual problems are not a source from the Catholic Church but comes from the person who has done so. If I sin and do something wrong, it's not Mother Church it's me. That's why we have Confession to have our sins forgiven and come back into community with the Church. You are taking human weakness and comparing them to the Church, the Foundation of Christ One Teaching Stands FIRM. The Foundation stands firm no matter what goes on within the Church. Maybe I'm not getting your question? There is over 2000 years of proof the gates of Hell have not prevailed against the Catholic Church. Those that love Her and stand by Her unto death. [quote]Many astute minds have not bought into the Catholic Church either.[/quote] Do you have to be smart to accept the One Truth. NO! We are supposed to be as children trusting in Our Heavenly Father. Yes we all have different gifts, but your statement confuses me, "Bought Into", number one there is no need to buy into the Truth. You FREELY accept it or reject, we have a FREE WILL. Instead of looking for arguments on things, pray. God Bless Pax Jason
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 17, 2004 Author Posted May 17, 2004 (edited) [quote]Maybe I'm not getting your question? There is over 2000 years of proof the gates of Hell have not prevailed against the Catholic Church. [/quote] I don't think you understood my ?. I'm not asking for individual problems with people in the Catholic Church, I am asking about the whole basis for the Catholic Church. You state that over 2000 years proves your church, and now I ask YOU to state why a smart guy would not agree with you. You can even debunk him if you want. (remember to use the best stuff you can find even if you think it's all silly) Edited May 17, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c
Livin_the_MASS Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 [quote][b]The Praise of the Father[/b] [i]Matthew 11:25[/i] "At that time Jesus replied, "I give praise to you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have [b]hidden these things from the wise and the learned[/b] you have [b]revealed[/b] them to the [b]childlike."[/b][/quote] Meditate on this passage and read the story before this verse [b]"Jesus Testimony to John"[/b] [b]Matthew 11:18[/b] He speaks of John coming [quote]"neither eating or drinking and they said "He is possessed by a demon."[/quote] [b]Matthew 11:19[/b] Then he speaks of Himself [quote]"The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they said 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is vindicated by her works.[/quote] Just a few examples of rejecting The Truth because someone thinks their smart instead of submitting to the Holy Will of God and becoming as a child. Both came with Truth (John and Jesus) but others said other wise. You have to be open to receive the Truth, it is refused to the arrogant. God Bless Pax Jason
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 17, 2004 Author Posted May 17, 2004 (edited) My supposed arrogance doesn't have anything to do with my theology. I really don't think I am being arrogant! seriously! Anyway, there are childlike believers who hold to my tenents regardless of me. Therefore being childlike doesn't validate your claim. I would like to stop the emotional talk lest we get more side-tracked so I won't respond to much more of this type of talk. I will stay persistant on staying focused though. Hopefully someone will respond to the thread's purpose so we can have a conversation based on the facts, such as history. (just not the facts of emotions lol) Edited May 17, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c
Livin_the_MASS Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 haha, man oh man, Sacred Scripture is side tracking Prayer is being "emotional" Theology is the fruit of the two. Hope you find what your heart searches for God Bless You Jason
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 17, 2004 Author Posted May 17, 2004 [quote]Theology is the fruit of the two.[/quote] Thanks Jason. And just for the record..... I agree. And now so that everyone else doesn't think this thread is over, just a little preemptive *BUMP*
the lumberjack Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 dairygirl....how can I put this shortly? what you are attempting to do in this thread is like asking a wolf the benefits of being a vegetarian...
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