Are Athiest Necessary In The World?

[Annie12]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1333208668' post='2411148']
If god put the natural law of good and evil into everyone, can we assume he just forgot to give it to sociopaths?
[/quote]
I think the sociopaths that commit horrid deeds are possessed. I don't understand why it is taboo to say either because Jesus cast out demons from people in the bible. I believe that some evil people can come off has appearing to have a mental issue when it's a spiritual issue. For example, I don't think Hitler wasn't schizophrenic (like people say) I think he was possessed. How could anyone commit such things otherwise? Possession happens. Why else do we train priests to be exorcists? I think that we need to also consider the spiritual side of things. Also, I totally am not saying people with mental issues are possessed just that in this day in age, violent people are sometimes labeled as having mental issues when in reality they have spiritual issues. I hope I didn't offend anyone.

[Anomaly]

Certainly demonic possession could be a viable and reasonable explanation for the behavior of people that may be classified as being mentally ill if you want. Some people are born with handicaps. Missing a limb, diminished intelligence, or no ability to empathize are handicaps. Recognizing it is good to live in an advanced cooperative society of humans, it is worthwhile to care for babies, sick, elderly, and handicapped people as fellow society members even if you conclude so from a God's decree or recognizing them as fellow members of a self aware species that can create beautiful music for a concert or a catholic mass.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1333208668' post='2411148']
If god put the natural law of good and evil into everyone, can we assume he just forgot to give it to sociopaths?
[/quote]

No. Try to see the whole picture. God gives every person an innate sense of the natural law. Instinctively we know the basics of whats right and wrong, but not perfectly. This is one of the effects of original sin. That is why the conscience has to be properly formed and developed as one grows. Neglecting the conscience or forming it incorrectly makes it harder for one to understand the natural law. On top of that, throw in free will. Each person is free to choose their actions and either follow their conscience or not, choose right or wrong. God won't force you to choose correctly, just as He will not force you to love Him. Has to be your choice.

Sociopaths? meh. not a psychologist, but I suppose they either formed their conscience incorrectly, killed it, or simply choose to ignore it.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1333250594' post='2411365']
No. Try to see the whole picture. God gives every person an innate sense of the natural law. Instinctively we know the basics of whats right and wrong, but not perfectly. This is one of the effects of original sin. That is why the conscience has to be properly formed and developed as one grows. Neglecting the conscience or forming it incorrectly makes it harder for one to understand the natural law. On top of that, throw in free will. Each person is free to choose their actions and either follow their conscience or not, choose right or wrong. God won't force you to choose correctly, just as He will not force you to love Him. Has to be your choice.

Sociopaths? meh. not a psychologist, but I suppose they either formed their conscience incorrectly, killed it, or simply choose to ignore it.
[/quote]
This seems a little like no true scotsman.

[centurion]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1333208668' post='2411148']
If god put the natural law of good and evil into everyone, can we assume he just forgot to give it to sociopaths?
[/quote]

No. The implication here is that God is capable of mistakes, and if God could make mistakes He would not be God.

God leaves humanity free to make our own decisions. Mental illness might mitigate or remove culpability of sin, but these extreme situations cannot act as a scale to weigh the whole.

I won't get too involved in a debate on the existence of Natural Law, as there are sufficient writers and philosophers who have written on the subject. However, the debate can be pretty much be summarized as having three ultimate possibilities:
1. Natural Law does not exist. There is no moral rule of any kind and we humans, being sentient beings, can do whatever we want. Generally, this would also preclude any kind of Prime Mover and is based on subjective truth.
2. Natural Law is merely a sociological/biological set of patterns designed either by evolution or society as a structure by which humans can live in relative safety. Therefore, one would not commit a crime like murder because outside or genetic forces impel them not to. In this case some might also try to argue that a "clockwork god" might have given us natural law to protect us from ourselves while still remaining aloof and uninterested.
3. Natural Law is the moral rule for humanity. This must demand a Prime Mover who defines reality and truth and who is interested in humanity.

Of course, the first option is monstrous. It would not allow for the concept of good or evil at all.

The second option is really very similar to the first. Societal mores or some biological set of instincts are flimsy rules by which to structure one's life, and they could be broken as easily as if they were not even there.

The third option is based on objective truth established by an intelligent Creator. As far as I am concerned it is the preferable choice.

Edited April 1, 2012 by centurion

[dominicansoul]

i work in an office filled with fundamentalist protestants, evangelicals, bible-thumping baptists, and non-denoms. most of the time, i'm having to protect my Faith from being bashed. many of these people treat others with disdain. in other words, there is a lack of Christian behavior from these Christians...

but take Keri, of my co-workers who is an atheist: she is the most kindest person in the office. i have had the most challenging and inspiring conversations with her on Faith, God, the Church, social issues at work, yet I could not have those same conversations with fellow Christians.

i truly believe with all my heart that God exists. I truly believe He is Creator and Lord over all His Creation. From the time we are born to the age of reason, we share an intimacy with God that borders on the mystical. It is when we come to reason where our relationship with God becomes our responsibility. It is when we hit the age of reason, where we begin the life-long battle with temptations, with sin and evil... where we have to decide which path we will walk--- the one that leads us to God or away from Him. Do we choose life or death? God clearly asks us to "Choose Life!" But not all are willing to walk down that path...

In this, I believe taht all humans were created for the sole reason of loving God. I believe at teh time we are created, God impresses this need of him in all our hearts and souls. This is the great meaning of Life...

We cannot put labels on people and believe them to be absent of this beautiful impression from God. Atheists, regardless of their non-belief, are still loved by God and created for the sole purpose of loving Him. They are still children of God, nothing erases taht. They are capable of great things, because God who is Love does not cease to be active in their lives. my co-worker keri is a prime example of this. Her kindness is needed in that hectic environment. She may have stopped believing in God, but He never stopped believing in her....

[Papist]

I think the real question is, Is the world necessary for the atheist?

[Ice_nine]

athiests r groce

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333551198' post='2412862']
I think the real question is, Is the world necessary for the atheist?
[/quote]Of course. That's the only place they exist.

[Annie12]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1333270064' post='2411425']
i work in an office filled with fundamentalist protestants, evangelicals, bible-thumping baptists, and non-denoms. most of the time, i'm having to protect my Faith from being bashed. many of these people treat others with disdain. in other words, there is a lack of Christian behavior from these Christians...

but take Keri, of my co-workers who is an atheist: she is the most kindest person in the office. i have had the most challenging and inspiring conversations with her on Faith, God, the Church, social issues at work, yet I could not have those same conversations with fellow Christians.

i truly believe with all my heart that God exists. I truly believe He is Creator and Lord over all His Creation. From the time we are born to the age of reason, we share an intimacy with God that borders on the mystical. It is when we come to reason where our relationship with God becomes our responsibility. It is when we hit the age of reason, where we begin the life-long battle with temptations, with sin and evil... where we have to decide which path we will walk--- the one that leads us to God or away from Him. Do we choose life or death? God clearly asks us to "Choose Life!" But not all are willing to walk down that path...

In this, I believe taht all humans were created for the sole reason of loving God. I believe at teh time we are created, God impresses this need of him in all our hearts and souls. This is the great meaning of Life...

We cannot put labels on people and believe them to be absent of this beautiful impression from God. Atheists, regardless of their non-belief, are still loved by God and created for the sole purpose of loving Him. They are still children of God, nothing erases taht. They are capable of great things, because God who is Love does not cease to be active in their lives. my co-worker keri is a prime example of this. Her kindness is needed in that hectic environment. She may have stopped believing in God, but He never stopped believing in her....
[/quote]
I was just thinking about that today. And, I realized how much God works even in the lives of those who don't acknowledge his existence. It is so beautiful when you really think about it! God is so infinitely loving!!! well let's just say God is amesome!!

[arfink]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1333563309' post='2412934']
Of course. That's the only place they exist.
[/quote]

I think you might not understand the question.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1333596628' post='2413169']
I think you might not understand the question.
[/quote]I think you just didn't get the humor.

[Papist]

There was humor...

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333637989' post='2413277']
There was humor...
[/quote]At least a bit of wit? I didn't know smiley emoticons were a requirement.

[arfink]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1333630639' post='2413241']
I think you just didn't get the humor.
[/quote]

I think you take the internets too seriously. Fail.

[Papist]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1333638443' post='2413283']
At least a bit of wit? I didn't know smiley emoticons were a requirement.
[/quote]

At least required in this thread, where believing is seeing.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333639081' post='2413291']
At least required in this thread, where believing is seeing.
[/quote]Well played, sir, well played.

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1333551198' post='2412862']
I think the real question is, Is the world necessary for the atheist?
[/quote]
The world is an accidental creation of of rock being pulled into a gravitational pull, so no, it is not necessary for the atheist.

[Papist]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1333817730' post='2414002']
The world is an accidental creation of of rock being pulled into a gravitational pull, so no, it is not necessary for the atheist.
[/quote]


This is some amazing accident.

[r2Dtoo]

Not really. There's a lot of Earth-like planets in the universe.