MIKolbe Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 @@ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1336089682' post='2426711'] And the other three? [/quote] All four Gospels have truths that are uniquely taught in each. Because, in part, each were written for different audiences. The Gospels are not carbon copies of each other. Otherwise we'd need but one and not four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1336090872' post='2426717'] I agree in principle that a person can be a witness by divine revelation. St Paul for example. However for the sake of discussion with sceptics we really need more earthly evidence. [/quote] Define earthly evidence. Because I would define it as empirical evidence. Are you stating we need empirical evidence to prove that one can be a witness of Jesus Christ by Divine Revelation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 4 different Evangelists writing at 4 different times, for 4 different sets of people with different circumstances. The Holy Spirit inspired them, He didn't make them into dictophones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1336091680' post='2426729'] Define earthly evidence. Because I would define it as empirical evidence. Are you stating we need empirical evidence to prove that one can be a witness of Jesus Christ by Divine Revelation? [/quote] No! Didn't state that at all. Need empirical evidence for discussion with people like Reyb. Obviously after all these years just stating that it was by divine revelation won't do it for him. But you and I might agree on something accepting purely divine revelation. I would say that my own faith was by divine revelation more than empirical evidence but I do believe that I also have empirical evidence as well as intuition. Faith is not blind, it is a combination of things. If it were blind I would have no way of determining whether I should be a Christian, Muslim or Jew. If I don't use reason I have no way of knowing if I should be a Catholic or Protestant. I don't think we have any disagreement on this thread KofC so you needn't look for one. [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1336092857' post='2426748'] 4 different Evangelists writing at 4 different times, for 4 different sets of people with different circumstances. The Holy Spirit inspired them, He didn't make them into dictophones. [/quote] For sure! Four different accounts of the same story is very conclusive witness for the doubters. Just curious as to why 3 erred by omission of a very important point. Thought someone might be able to give an explanation that appeals to reason as well as spirit, apparently not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) There was no error by omission. The is no error in the Gospels. Because Luke alone was chosen to reveal a certain truth does not mean the Holy Ghost erred by omission in not revealing that same truth to the other three. The reasons I gave while short are sound, well reasoned and quite logical. All four tell the same story but each has a unique focus revealing diffrent parts of the same story. As for Reyb I'm not sure what could convence him that he is in error and teaches heresy. The reality that his belief system did not come into existance until his existance thousands of years after Christ transfered authority from the chair of Moses to the chair of Peter is perhaps a start. Edited May 4, 2012 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) [size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]MotC - read John 21:25 please. Again...if the 4 writers gave a word for word account of exactly the same thing, there would be no need of 4 Gospel accounts in the Bible, eh? [b]Mark[/b][color=#000000] - Disciple of Peter. Bi-lingual Aramaic/Greek interpreter; wrote for the persecuted Gentile community; late 60's (Rome? later Alexandria?)[/color] [b]Matthew [/b][color=#000000]- Apostle. Jewish-Christian scribe; wrote for an educated community arguing with other Jews; 70's-80's (Galilee? Antioch?)[/color] [b]Luke [/b][color=#000000]- Disciple of Paul. Gentile Christian historian; wrote for a wealthier urban community becoming complacent; 80's (Antioch? Greece?)[/color] [b]John [/b][color=#000000]- Apostle. Wrote for Jewish Christian believers, in conflict with the "synagogue across the street"; 90's (Syria? later Ephesus?)[/color][/font][/size] Edited May 4, 2012 by Groo the Wanderer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Reyb Sounds like youre starting your own heresy, with only you as its follower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1336086413' post='2426680'] [b] [url="http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5416666"]2Tim.2[/url][/b][list=1] [*][[b]2[/b]] and what you have heard from me before many[b] witness[/b]es entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. [/list] Luke is a witness of this type. He heard from Paul and passed it along. Mark also is a witness of this type who heard from Peter. They wrote down what they gathered from Peter and Paul. Why is that difficult to understand. They heard the word of God and wrote it down. Non-catholics have this idea that everything happened so miraculously. God is at work in the ordinary. Luke and Mark didn't have to see visions and dream dreams. They saw God in the Apostles. [/quote] Please read 2 Timothy 2:2ff in its proper context. It is written…. You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many [b]witnesses[/b] entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others. 3 Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer. 5 Similarly, anyone who competes as an athlete does not receive the victor’s crown except by competing according to the rules. 6 The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops. 7 Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this. Who are these witnesses? Are they witnesses of Jesus or witnesses of Paul or witnesses of whatever Paul is saying? Our subject discussion is about Luke whether he is a true witness of Jesus Christ or not. Obviously, he is not a witness of your Jesus - the historical Jesus. But he is a witness of the real Jesus because he said 'fulfilled in us' - meaning the prophesied Word was fulfilled in him too. (see the beginning of his letter) Edited May 4, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1336087078' post='2426684'] I find it incredibly odd Reyb, that you are so willing to discount the writings of those that were there in the beginning and for the next 2000 years, yet you display unshakable faith in Wikipedia. Catholic Church - 2000 years of history, wisdom, knowledge. Unbroken line of succession. Same teachings then as now. Wiki - around less than 20 years. Multiple entries containing false information. Editable by anyone. Banned by most colleges as a research tool. your call.... [/quote] Are you referring to the letters of your early fathers? (and Why I do not accept their letters?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) you know exactly what i am referring to. don;t take me for an idiot. i do that well enough on my own. Edited May 4, 2012 by Groo the Wanderer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1336099779' post='2426794'] you know exactly what i am referring to. don;t take me for an idiot. i do that well enough on my own. [/quote] I do not accept your early fathers letters because they are all against the message of the scriptures. (By the way I know you are not an idiot). Edited May 4, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1336098334' post='2426785'] [size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]MotC - read John 21:25 please.[/font][/size] [/quote] [b]It is written in John 21:25[/b] [b]25 [/b]Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. Now, if I will follow you line of thinking. Do you think - if everything your Jesus did would be written for every second of every minute of every hour of every day for 33 years – that this world have no rooms for the books that would be written? I want to discuss this with you because you are always using this verse as if you truly understand the message of this verse. Again…. Do you think that this world have no rooms for the books that would be written? Edited May 4, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 The full works of God would indeed fill more rooms than the earth could hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1336101320' post='2426817'] The full works of God would indeed fill more rooms than the earth could hold. [/quote] Of course, we all believe God creates everything in heavens and earth. But our discussion is in this particular verse – what Jesus did can’t be contained in this world if everything will be written down. Thus, I asked if every second for full 33 years of his earthly life will be taken into account, Do you think this world have no rooms for the books that would be written? Edited May 4, 2012 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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