Anarchism And Property Rights

[Winchester]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1340069851' post='2446084']
That's a dodge. My not being able to give a number does not invalidate the State has the justification to taxation for the common good of the people.[/quote]
Establish that harming some people is for the common good. That's a serious assertion that requires a lot of argumentation. Some economists have made use of utils in the attempt. I feel they've been unsuccessful.

Apart from that, If I could make us all better off by taking money from you, would that justify it? You're arguing that taxes are justified by an outcome. Even without proving that outcome, I think there's a problem, with that. Does stealing depend solely upon your intent?



[quote]Not quite...


Definition of POWER
1
[color=#696969]a (1) : ability to act or produce an effect (2) : ability to get extra-base hits (3) : capacity for being acted upon or undergoing an effect[/color]

b : legal or official authority, capacity, or right
2
a : possession of control, authority, or influence over others

b : one having such power; specifically : a sovereign state

c : a controlling group : establishment —often used in the phrase the powers that be
[/quote]
Which dictionary is that?

Rapists have power.

The question of how one forms a state has to be resolved, and yes, you need to come up with the number of people that represent such a critical mass. You've yet to explain how taking the property of others by force ceases to be stealing.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340070537' post='2446085']
Establish that harming some people is for the common good. That's a serious assertion that requires a lot of argumentation. Some economists have made use of utils in the attempt. I feel they've been unsuccessful.

Apart from that, If I could make us all better off by taking money from you, would that justify it? You're arguing that taxes are justified by an outcome. Even without proving that outcome, I think there's a problem, with that. Does stealing depend solely upon your intent?[/quote]

Here's the problem I'm trying to get at that you keep dodging, anarchists often state that "taxation is theft" and thus immoral ultimately is that or is that not true?

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340070537' post='2446085']
Which dictionary is that?[/quote]

One which has not yet been approved by the Anarchist movement?

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340070537' post='2446085']
Rapists have power.[/quote]

That power, is not legitimate, is not just and is not derived from God.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340070537' post='2446085']
The question of how one forms a state has to be resolved, and yes, you need to come up with the number of people that represent such a critical mass. You've yet to explain how taking the property of others by force ceases to be stealing.
[/quote]

No, I don't believe I have to give a certain number. The ultimate question is whether or not taxation in and of itself is theft. Does the Church state that in and of itself taxation is stealing? Hasn't the Church approved of taxation for the common good? Doesn't anarchism go futher than the Church when it declares taxation to be theft?

Edited June 19, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[Anomaly]

Coercion of some sort is mandatory if people live in groups and have a society. Anarchy is a utopian myth because society can't function without some ideas or wants being subjected to the will of a majority. The only question is the natal limiting of coercion. Coercion is always present even if you choose to leave a societal group if you don't agree with the majority of a group you find yourself in, whether you're a rapist or anti-statis.

Live with it, change it, or leave it for another like minded group.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Anomaly

[Winchester]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1340071575' post='2446093']
Here's the problem I'm trying to get at that you keep dodging, anarchists often state that "taxation is theft" and thus immoral ultimately is that or is that not true?[/quote]
Insofar as tax is an involuntary taking of property, yes.



[quote]One which has not yet been approved by the Anarchist movement?[/quote]
I was mocking you resorting to a dictionary definition of "power".



[quote]That power, is not legitimate, is not just and is not derived from God.[/quote]
But you feel taking money is. Come on, just quote the render unto caesar verse. I know you're dying to.



[quote]No, I don't believe I have to give a certain number. The ultimate question is whether or not taxation in and of itself is theft. Does the Church state that in and of itself taxation is stealing? Hasn't the Church approved of taxation for the common good? Doesn't anarchism go futher than the Church when it declares taxation to be theft?
[/quote]
The statements in Church documents on that position are not binding upon the faithful, and the assumption that it is for the common good is yet to be proved. No document I know has rejected the notion of some of the late Scholastics that a king may not raise taxes without approval from the people.

What criteria do you set for someone claiming this right to tax? You must have some distinction between the warlords in Somalia and the US Congress.

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1340073525' post='2446122']
Coercion of some sort is mandatory if people live in groups and have a society. Anarchy is a utopian myth because society can't function without some ideas or wants being subjected to the will of a majority. The only question is the natal limiting of coercion. Coercion is always present even if you choose to leave a societal group if you don't agree with the majority of a group you find yourself in, whether you're a rapist or anti-statis.

Live with it, change it, or leave it for another like minded group.
[/quote]
http://www.lewrockwell.com/kinsella/kinsella15.html#ref

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340070537' post='2446085']
Establish that harming some people is for the common good. That's a serious assertion that requires a lot of argumentation. Some economists have made use of utils in the attempt. I feel they've been unsuccessful.

Apart from that, If I could make us all better off by taking money from you, would that justify it? You're arguing that taxes are justified by an outcome. Even without proving that outcome, I think there's a problem, with that. Does stealing depend solely upon your intent?[/quote]According to the Catholic Church, taxation is a privilege of a legitimate government.

Assuming that such a government exists, do you believe it has the right to tax citizens?

[Winchester]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1340074222' post='2446129']
According to the Catholic Church, taxation is a privilege of a legitimate government.

Assuming that such a government exists, do you believe it has the right to tax citizens?
[/quote]
Not binding upon the faithful, but show me a legitimate government, and then the method of taxation of which the Church speaks. The documents to which you are referring never define the composition of government.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340074730' post='2446130']
Not binding upon the faithful, but show me a legitimate government, and then the method of taxation of which the Church speaks. The documents to which you are referring never define the composition of government.
[/quote]Never spoke of any documents. All I said is Church teaching.

As far as the teaching goes, it is in fact binding on the faithful insofar as it's taught by the magisterium, particularly the Holy Father. I believe a similar binding document says something about a "religious submission of mind and will," but I haven't read it recently.

I'm really just asking about the principle of taxation. Now would the Church have to define what type of taxation is appropriate or does that fall within the government's purview?

[Winchester]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1340074879' post='2446131']
Never spoke of any documents. All I said is Church teaching.

As far as the teaching goes, it is in fact binding on the faithful insofar as it's taught by the magisterium, particularly the Holy Father. I believe a similar binding document says something about a "religious submission of mind and will," but I haven't read it recently.

I'm really just asking about the principle of taxation. Now would the Church have to define what type of taxation is appropriate or does that fall within the government's purview?
[/quote]
That teaching wasn't handed down orally. There are documents. Don't get snippy. Do you have anything describing a legitimate government?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340075002' post='2446133']
That teaching wasn't handed down orally. There are documents. Don't get snippy. Do you have anything describing a legitimate government?
[/quote]I'm just want to be as precise as possible about where I get this information since I want the teaching to be the focus rather than the sources for the teachings.

Gaudium et Spes is fairly clear on what determines a legitimate government:
[quote]It is clear, therefore, that the political community and public authority are founded on human nature and hence belong to the order designed by God, even though the choice of a political regime and the appointment of rulers are left to the free will of citizens.(3)
[/quote]

The Church Constitution says that citizens have the right to establish a legitimate authority and political regime.

[Winchester]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1340075544' post='2446135']
I'm just want to be as precise as possible about where I get this information since I want the teaching to be the focus rather than the sources for the teachings.

Gaudium et Spes is fairly clear on what determines a legitimate government:


The Church Constitution says that citizens have the right to establish a legitimate authority and political regime.
[/quote]
Well, I didn't establish this government.

That looks suspiciously like voluntaryism.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340075700' post='2446137']
Well, I didn't establish this government.

That looks suspiciously like voluntaryism.
[/quote]I'm not sure that the Church is advocating voluntarism by any stretch. I think it is simply saying that a Democracy, or in our case, a Republic is a legitimate form of government.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340074730' post='2446130']

Not binding upon the faithful
[/quote]

Posting from phone will reply to your other points when I can. But I'm certain the Church teaches that it is morally obligatory to pay taxes for the common good. Which is binding.

Edited June 19, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[Winchester]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1340076395' post='2446143']
Posting from phone will reply to your other points when I can. But I'm certain the Church teaches that it is morally obligatory to pay taxes for the common good. Which is binding.
[/quote]
It's morally obligatory to pay just taxes.

[Winchester]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1340075847' post='2446138']
I'm not sure that the Church is advocating voluntarism by any stretch. I think it is simply saying that a Democracy, or in our case, a Republic is a legitimate form of government.
[/quote]
So a democracy in which 51% of the people force 49% of the people to submit?

I've yet to see anyone explain the mechanism by which a certain collective attains exemption from the commandments.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340108276' post='2446232']
So a democracy in which 51% of the people force 49% of the people to submit?
I've yet to see anyone explain the mechanism by which a certain collective attains exemption from the commandments.[/quote]
Practical necessity. This is the real world. Deal with it.

[Winchester]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1340076395' post='2446143']
Posting from phone will reply to your other points when I can. But I'm certain the Church teaches that it is morally obligatory to pay taxes for the common good. Which is binding.
[/quote]
It's morally obligatory to pay just taxes.

You'll find it mentioned in the CCC in 2409, below that in a paragraph listing tax evasion as morally illicit. Taken alone, this would put us in a position to be unable to oppose any taxation. One cannot assume from that note that all taxes are legitimate, nor that any body of people (legitimate government presumably being those who may tax) is capable of levying taxes.

The legitimate exercise of authority is in question. Anyone may defend moral law. It's not peculiar to the state.

[Laudate_Dominum]

u mad?

hahahha

i troll u.

[Papist]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340109239' post='2446239']
It's morally obligatory to pay just taxes.

You'll find it mentioned in the CCC in 2409, below that in a paragraph listing tax evasion as morally illicit. Taken alone, this would put us in a position to be unable to oppose any taxation. One cannot assume from that note that all taxes are legitimate, nor that any body of people (legitimate government presumably being those who may tax) is capable of levying taxes.

The legitimate exercise of authority is in question. Anyone may defend moral law. It's not peculiar to the state.
[/quote]


Win,
I am not directing this at you. Your post got me thinking, which I do not like before my second cup of coffee.

Just. Now who determines which taxes are just and which are unjust. Am I obligated to not pay a tax if I believe such tax is unjust? By doing so, I risk going to jail causing pain and suffering for my wife and kids. Paying an unjust tax does not make me a collaborator with its cause. That said, I believe it is extremely difficult to take one’s property justly, especially the government.

This is why it very important to not be passive in the political process.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1340111505' post='2446243']
Win,
I am not directing this at you. Your post got me thinking, which I do not like before my second cup of coffee.

Just. Now who determines which taxes are just and which are unjust. Am I obligated to not pay a tax if I believe such tax is unjust? By doing so, I risk going to jail causing pain and suffering for my wife and kids. Paying an unjust tax does not make me a collaborator with its cause. That said, I believe it is extremely difficult to take one’s property justly, especially the government.

This is why it very important to not be passive in the political process.
[/quote]

To me, it amounts to the choice of a well-formed conscience. Certainly the motivation of tax evasion would play a role in whether an act was sinful, or not. Tax evasion cannot be inherently evil unless taxes are inherently just. Even a properly constituted government would be made of fallible people.

However, we may render unto Caesar. We may give money to an unjust government, because taxes are demanded by force. Just as you do not have to resist other unjust assaults upon you, you may pay taxes.

[Papist]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340113028' post='2446250']
To me, it amounts to the choice of a well-formed conscience. Certainly the motivation of tax evasion would play a role in whether an act was sinful, or not. Tax evasion cannot be inherently evil unless taxes are inherently just. Even a properly constituted government would be made of fallible people.

However, we may render unto Caesar. We may give money to an unjust government, because taxes are demanded by force. Just as you do not have to resist other unjust assaults upon you, you may pay taxes.
[/quote]

You know who loved taxes, right?