Vocation Rant

[emmaberry]

Annie12: I didn't get the impression you were being arrogant--although nunsense makes excellent points. Regardless, I thought it was very good advice.

[maximillion]

I still think it's abusive........besides as has been pointed out that it is the parents sin. I think nunsense has a good idea in getting the parish priest involved. It would be good not to start an all out war and too easy to be polarised and want others to take sides.
It's not a situation I would wish anyone to be in. Pray to The Little Flower....she was about your age and she had to end up going to the Pope.

[Annie12]

MonjuFutura, do you know anyone who you could sneak out of the house with and go to mass? If you had a friend who you could hang out with and go to mass with, you could just tell your parents that you are with your friend. You could go to Mass and a movie or something.

What does everyone else think? Is this too dishonest?

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1338987246' post='2441721']
MonjuFutura, do you know anyone who you could sneak out of the house with and go to mass? If you had a friend who you could hang out with and go to mass with, you could just tell your parents that you are with your friend. You could go to Mass and a movie or something.

What does everyone else think? Is this too dishonest?
[/quote]

I think it is not only too dishonest but also dangerous. When you are fifteen your parents have every right to place restrictions on you and to know at all times where you are. What if there was a car accident? What if you got hurt? They wouldn't be able to help you and no one would know all your information or where you were.

You are not sinning by not attending Mass - you would be sinning if you sneaked out whether it be for mass or a wild party is irrelevant.

Your parents are not the bad guys. They may be wrong in this situation but it isn't because they are bad or wrong - it's because they love you and care about you so much that they want you to be a healthy and well-rounded young woman before you make any life changing decisions. They may be going about it the wrong way but it is certainly motivated by love and concern for you.

Do not - no matter what - let this become a "me vs. them" situation in your thoughts and in your heart. Both your parents and you want the best for you - you just disagree right now (as most teenagers and parents do!) on what the best is. If you let the situation polarize you no amount of discussion will be fruitful.

Maybe you could try to develop some other interests that your parents would view as more normative so that they feel able to permit you to go back to Mass. Work with them - join a sports team, take up photography, play an instrument... take the blessed middle path... it will give your parents some comfort.

[TheresaThoma]

I would also suggest giving it some time and then approaching them with a compromise. For example maybe there is someone near you that can give you a ride to Mass. That way your parents don't have to take you but they still know that you are only going once a week. If they are not open to that then you must accept this in obedience for now.

I've had to work something similar out with my parents. They tried to prevent me from going to Mass by not allowing me to use their car but I found a few people who lived near me that can give me rides to Mass. Then again I'm 21 so things are a bit different for me.

[Annie12]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1338987880' post='2441724']
I think it is not only too dishonest but also dangerous. When you are fifteen your parents have every right to place restrictions on you and to know at all times where you are. What if there was a car accident? What if you got hurt? They wouldn't be able to help you and no one would know all your information or where you were.

You are not sinning by not attending Mass - you would be sinning if you sneaked out whether it be for mass or a wild party is irrelevant.

Your parents are not the bad guys. They may be wrong in this situation but it isn't because they are bad or wrong - it's because they love you and care about you so much that they want you to be a healthy and well-rounded young woman before you make any life changing decisions. They may be going about it the wrong way but it is certainly motivated by love and concern for you.

Do not - no matter what - let this become a "me vs. them" situation in your thoughts and in your heart. Both your parents and you want the best for you - you just disagree right now (as most teenagers and parents do!) on what the best is. If you let the situation polarize you no amount of discussion will be fruitful.

Maybe you could try to develop some other interests that your parents would view as more normative so that they feel able to permit you to go back to Mass. Work with them - join a sports team, take up photography, play an instrument... take the blessed middle path... it will give your parents some comfort.
[/quote]

Hmmmmmmmmmm...... I'm being stubborn on this one. except for the possibility of it being dishonest, if her parents knew that she was with her friend (and presumably her friends parent since they aren't old enough to drive) Then she would be perfectly safe. If her parents are not going to be reasonable then I think she has every right to go to Mass. Mass is the energy for the soul and NO ONE should be deprive of it.

I know of one Irish Martyr, who disobeyed her parents when it was dangerous and when her parent were forcing her to marry someone when she had a vocation. She was thinking eternal though.

Our souls are the most precious thinks to us. They are the only things we can control. I feel like you are treating her as just any ol' kid on the block Sr. Marie.
She need to obey her parent yes, but not in this situation.

Monjafutura, I know your young, but try talking to people you know about it. They will know you best and help you get to mass. People can say " just stick it out" but they aren't the ones who have to suffer. I know if I had a catholic friend who lived near me, i would go to mass with her. I don't think it is okay to just stick it out. You need to get Adults on your side who can talk to your parents about this. What ever you do, decide though prayer.

And no matter what happens you are not sinning!

Edited June 6, 2012 by Annie12

[beatitude]

Nunsense and Sister Marie have given excellent advice. I think we should all remember that we don't know the full situation here, so we should be careful about what we recommend.

Monja, one thing that you wrote in your original post really stood out for me: "All my life, I've been up and down with religion, fervent one minute, cold the next, but I would never have grown so cold again if only I didn't have that long period of time without church or anything." Presumably your parents have seen you fluctuating like this, being hot one minute, cold the next. Seeing you go from being very ambivalent and flighty around religion to being fixated on the idea of religious life must have been worrying to them, because it doesn't suggest a mature spirituality, just a young girl swinging from pole to pole.

Now you say that you 'pray somewhat'. Why only somewhat? You are in a difficult situation for any Catholic, and now is the time to deepen prayer. There are Catholics in some part of the world who hardly ever get to have Mass because they live in such remote areas and they are entirely dependent on travelling priests. There are Catholics who had to go without Mass for years, even decades, because they were in jail. They still prayed. If you were able to go to Mass, and it all suddenly lost its appeal, would you have other reasons for why you were struggling? The sermons aren't inspiring, the children are too noisy, the music isn't beautiful enough, we don't get enough Adoration? To love God - to really love him - means to pray as best we can in the situation in which we find ourselves, not pining after what we can't have now. That shows a lack of trust in him and his goodness, and an unwillingness to grow in ourselves.

Prayer in your situation means putting yourself and your loved ones in the hands of God and knowing that in doing this none of you can come to harm. It is a kind of very quiet trust. Establish a steady routine for prayer, perhaps a Bible reading, a period of silent prayer, and the Divine Mercy Chaplet - nothing too long or complicated, otherwise you won't stick to it. Have a designated time for prayer and make sure you pray even when you don't feel like it. Don't be secretive about it, but don't make a big fuss about it either - no pointedly telling your parents, "I'm going to pray now," and that kind of thing. Just make it a matter-of-fact part of your day.

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1338989107' post='2441729']
Hmmmmmmmmmm...... I'm being stubborn on this one. except for the possibility of it being dishonest, if her parents knew that she was with her friend (and presumably her friends parent since they aren't old enough to drive) Then she would be perfectly safe. If her parents are not going to be reasonable then I think she has every right to go to Mass. Mass is the energy for the soul and NO ONE should be deprive of it.[/quote]

I don't mind stubborn . I'm stubborn too.

It isn't sneaking out if your parents know so I guess in your first post I misunderstood when you used that phrase that the parents would know she was with her friends parents. I still say that lying to your parents is wrong. There are people all over the world who are deprived of going to Mass because of violence, lack of priests, and just geographical barriers. It would be much more beneficial to the soul to unite the suffering of being obedient to the suffering experienced by those people to the sacrifice of the Mass through prayer, penance, and spiritual communion. We are guaranteed that Jesus comes to us in the Eucharist but He is also present in prayer and scripture.

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1338989107' post='2441729']
I know of one Irish Martyr, who disobeyed her parents when it was dangerous and when her parent were forcing her to marry someone when she had a vocation. She was thinking eternal though.[/quote]

Marriage is a very different topic because you are entering into a contractual union that cannot be undone... she also didn't lie. She courageously refused and took the consequences. There are a lot of differences I could continue to expound on.

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1338989107' post='2441729']
Our souls are the most precious thinks to us. They are the only things we can control. I feel like you are treating her as just any ol' kid on the block Sr. Marie.
She need to obey her parent yes, but not in this situation.

Monjafutura, I know your young, but try talking to people you know about it. They will know you best and help you get to mass. People can say " just stick it out" but they aren't the ones who have to suffer. I know if I had a catholic friend who lived near me, i would go to mass with her. I don't think it is okay to just stick it out. You need to get Adults on your side who can talk to your parents about this. What ever you do, decide though prayer.

And no matter what happens you are not sinning!
[/quote]

Our souls are precious that is why I am cautioning against committing a sin, the sin of lying and of disobedience. The ends (going to mass) do not justify the means (lying). You are right I'm treating her as any other child, because she is a child and children need to listen to their parents. Having a vocation does not mean you don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else. As a sister, I treat all children as if they were my own children and this is the advice I would give to any child.

Who gets to decide when it is okay for a child to disobey their parents? What is the criteria? This does not have to be harmful to this child's soul - it could be the thing that brings her to greater holiness but holiness is not a fruit of deceit. She is not sinning by obeying her parents - let her turn this into an opportunity to grow in love with the Lord and see her holiness grow with it. Feeling disconnected from him, missing the Eucharist, are not necessarily signs that one is falling away in faith - they are signs that they are growing.

Monja - I do not mean it disrespectfully when I call you a child. It is wonderful to be so passionate and so filled with life. I am a convert and a sister and when I was your age my faith caused a great deal of discord in my family. I made the mistake as a child of allowing my new found faith and my fervor in my vocation to create a large and impassible divide between myself and my family. I have been in a very similar situation and my choices, to the contrary of my advice here, caused my parents to resent both me and the Church. Had I been more diplomatic, more obedient, holier... I'm sure that we would not, all these years later, be distant and uncomfortable with one another and they might have grown closer to the Church themselves.

Again, it is not you against your parents. It is you and your parents growing towards Christ and right now you are disagreeing on how to do that.

Prayers for you!

[Gemma]

Monja--the following just came to me:

At the time you are used to attending Mass, dress up and sit by the door where you access the vehicle. If your parents find you, and ask what you're doing, say "Waiting for you to take me to church."

Relating this to people who don't have access to Mass, while commendable, is almost ridiculous. I am a parent also, and I remember my conversion at 16. My boys never acted like this. With my family, our bone of contention was because of doctrinal differences. We went to a family counselor, and he said that if they believed I was saved, let me convert.

I have told my sons, the youngest of the two graduates Saturday, that I respect this time in their lives when they are in the process of becoming more independent for the sake of their future lives, but they are still under my roof, and must still obey my rules. Monja's parents haven't stated any firm expectations for what they've done.

Monja, find a pic of a monastery or chapel on the net, and live there in your heart. Purity in the midst of immorality is your cloister right now. But, do try what I said in the first paragraph. And talk to a priest and counselor both. While done out of love, it is borderline abuse. Teens often do have to insist because of their history of flightiness.

Blessings,
Gemma

[beatitude]

[quote]At the time you are used to attending Mass, dress up and sit by the door where you access the vehicle. If your parents find you, and ask what you're doing, say "Waiting for you to take me to church."[/quote]

I don't see how acting in that kind of passive-aggressive way is going to make her parents drop their conviction that religion has done something harmful to her...or make them any more likely to take her to church.

Edited June 6, 2012 by beatitude

[LaPetiteSoeur]

Sr. Marie has given very good advice. You can always watch the Mass online (I know it is not the same as you cannot receive the Eucharist, but you can be there in spirit) and then ask for a spiritual communion with Christ.

You are very young (only 15), and your parents are still your parents and guardians. They are acting out of love and as hard as it is to see that now, hopefully you will one day. Perhaps they thought you were moving too fast and they want you to live your life now--as a high school student-- and not waiting for that day when you can enter the convent.

My cousins once lived in the middle east for six years. There was a single priest for the entire country and they were not able to attend Mass very often because there was rarely one available. They continued to be Catholic and practiced, just in a modified way.

Prayers for you and your parents.

[Annie12]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1338991760' post='2441735']
I don't mind stubborn . I'm stubborn too.

It isn't sneaking out if your parents know so I guess in your first post I misunderstood when you used that phrase that the parents would know she was with her friends parents. I still say that lying to your parents is wrong. There are people all over the world who are deprived of going to Mass because of violence, lack of priests, and just geographical barriers. It would be much more beneficial to the soul to unite the suffering of being obedient to the suffering experienced by those people to the sacrifice of the Mass through prayer, penance, and spiritual communion. We are guaranteed that Jesus comes to us in the Eucharist but He is also present in prayer and scripture.



Marriage is a very different topic because you are entering into a contractual union that cannot be undone... she also didn't lie. She courageously refused and took the consequences. There are a lot of differences I could continue to expound on.



Our souls are precious that is why I am cautioning against committing a sin, the sin of lying and of disobedience. The ends (going to mass) do not justify the means (lying). You are right I'm treating her as any other child, because she is a child and children need to listen to their parents. Having a vocation does not mean you don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else. As a sister, I treat all children as if they were my own children and this is the advice I would give to any child.

Who gets to decide when it is okay for a child to disobey their parents? What is the criteria? This does not have to be harmful to this child's soul - it could be the thing that brings her to greater holiness but holiness is not a fruit of deceit. She is not sinning by obeying her parents - let her turn this into an opportunity to grow in love with the Lord and see her holiness grow with it. Feeling disconnected from him, missing the Eucharist, are not necessarily signs that one is falling away in faith - they are signs that they are growing.

Monja - I do not mean it disrespectfully when I call you a child. It is wonderful to be so passionate and so filled with life. I am a convert and a sister and when I was your age my faith caused a great deal of discord in my family. I made the mistake as a child of allowing my new found faith and my fervor in my vocation to create a large and impassible divide between myself and my family. I have been in a very similar situation and my choices, to the contrary of my advice here, caused my parents to resent both me and the Church. Had I been more diplomatic, more obedient, holier... I'm sure that we would not, all these years later, be distant and uncomfortable with one another and they might have grown closer to the Church themselves.

Again, it is not you against your parents. It is you and your parents growing towards Christ and right now you are disagreeing on how to do that.

Prayers for you!
[/quote]
If she said she was going out with her friends and went to mass that wouldn't be lying.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that even though it's not a sin in her case not to go to mass, she should see if there are other possible ways of getting there. I didn't want to endorse lying or disobedience you have good points but I can feel her pain because when I was 13 my family has a VERY painful indecent with our parish at the time and we stopped going to mass. I wanted to go but no one would take me. I fell away for 3 years and regret it from the bottom of my heart. I wish I would have been able to go to Mass and develop my spiritual life, but it was so hard and I started to not care and then my spiritual life just completely fell apart. Mass and the Eucharist are essential! I just don't want that to happen to her!

[Gemma]

I have consulted with others, and Monja "can sue" because she has a right to attend church.

Blessings,
Gemma

[somethingfishy]

If anyone here genuinely thinks "not taking your child to Mass" counts as abuse, feel free to report the situation to state authories and see how they respond. Once they're finished laughing in your face, maybe take a chill pill and remember that practicing obedience to legitimate, God-given authority is excellent preparation for religious life.

[AnneLine]

Yes, legally Monja may have a right to sue... but it doesn't make it the better option. I think it is too strong a medicine... and might just injure the patient!

Monja, let's let obedience to the Church and to your parents be your guide. Pick up a phone, call your pastor and ask your PASTOR what he thinks you should do.

I really do think it would be the wiser course for now to just be obedient to your parents and pray quietly at home, joining yourself to the Holy Sacrifice from a distance. While I think they are misguided, I understand why your parents might be concerned, and I think you need to show them in an adult way that they have nothing to be afraid of. If you try to call CPS, that will look even more outrageous to them, and they will get more and more restrictive.

Calling your pastor might also help with the desire for the Eucharist you have. Your pastor He might be able to figure out a way for you to receive from time-to-time even if you can't get to Mass - having you connect with an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion - Lord knows this is an 'extraordinary' situation!

But above all, ask our Lord what he wants. My bet is that he wants you to learn how to love him through this desert time of desire...

Edited June 6, 2012 by AnneLine

[maximillion]

FACT SHEET: A summary of the rights under the Convention
on the Rights of the Child
Article 1 (Definition of the child): The Convention defines a 'child' as a person below the age of 18,
unless the laws of a particular country set the legal age for adulthood younger. The Committee on the
Rights of the Child, the monitoring body for the Convention, has encouraged States to review the age of
majority if it is set below 18 and to increase the level of protection for all children under 18.
Article 2 (Non-discrimination): The Convention applies to all children, whatever their race, religion or
abilities; whatever they think or say, whatever type of family they come from. It doesn’t matter where
children live, what language they speak, what their parents do, whether they are boys or girls, what their
culture is, whether they have a disability or whether they are rich or poor. No child should be treated
unfairly on any basis.
Article 3 (Best interests of the child): The best interests of children must be the primary concern in
making decisions that may affect them. All adults should do what is best for children. When adults make
decisions, they should think about how their decisions will affect children. This particularly applies to
budget, policy and law makers.
Article 4 (Protection of rights): Governments have a responsibility to take all available measures to
make sure children’s rights are respected, protected and fulfilled. When countries ratify the Convention,
they agree to review their laws relating to children. This involves assessing their social services, legal,
health and educational systems, as well as levels of funding for these services. Governments are then
obliged to take all necessary steps to ensure that the minimum standards set by the Convention in these
areas are being met. They must help families protect children’s rights and create an environment where
they can grow and reach their potential. In some instances, this may involve changing existing laws or
creating new ones. Such legislative changes are not imposed, but come about through the same process
by which any law is created or reformed within a country. Article 41 of the Convention points out the when
a country already has higher legal standards than those seen in the Convention, the higher standards
always prevail.
Article 5 (Parental guidance): Governments should respect the rights and responsibilities of families to
direct and guide their children so that, as they grow, they learn to use their rights properly. Helping
children to understand their rights does not mean pushing them to make choices with consequences that
they are too young to handle. Article 5 encourages parents to deal with rights issues "in a manner
consistent with the evolving capacities of the child". The Convention does not take responsibility for
children away from their parents and give more authority to governments. It does place on governments
the responsibility to protect and assist families in fulfilling their essential role as nurturers of children.
Article 6 (Survival and development): Children have the right to live. Governments should ensure that
children survive and develop healthily.
Article 7 (Registration, name, nationality, care): All children have the right to a legally registered name,
officially recognised by the government. Children have the right to a nationality (to belong to a country).
Children also have the right to know and, as far as possible, to be cared for by their parents.
Article 8 (Preservation of identity): Children have the right to an identity – an official record of who they
are. Governments should respect children’s right to a name, a nationality and family ties.
Article 9 (Separation from parents): Children have the right to live with their parent(s), unless it is bad
for them. Children whose parents do not live together have the right to stay in contact with both parents,
unless this might hurt the child.
Article 10 (Family reunification): Families whose members live in different countries should be allowed
to move between those countries so that parents and children can stay in contact, or get back together as
a family.

Article 11 (Kidnapping): Governments should take steps to stop children being taken out of their own
country illegally. This article is particularly concerned with parental abductions. The Convention’s Optional
Protocol on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography has a provision that concerns
abduction for financial gain.
Article 12 (Respect for the views of the child): When adults are making decisions that affect children,
children have the right to say what they think should happen and have their opinions taken into account.
This does not mean that children can now tell their parents what to do. This Convention encourages
adults to listen to the opinions of children and involve them in decision-making -- not give children
authority over adults. Article 12 does not interfere with parents' right and responsibility to express their
views on matters affecting their children. Moreover, the Convention recognizes that the level of a child’s
participation in decisions must be appropriate to the child's level of maturity. Children's ability to form and
express their opinions develops with age and most adults will naturally give the views of teenagers
greater weight than those of a preschooler, whether in family, legal or administrative decisions.
Article 12 (Respect for the views of the child): When adults are making decisions that affect children,
children have the right to say what they think should happen and have their opinions taken into account.
Article 13 (Freedom of expression): Children have the right to get and share information, as long as the
information is not damaging to them or others. In exercising the right to freedom of expression, children
have the responsibility to also respect the rights, freedoms and reputations of others. The freedom of
expression includes the right to share information in any way they choose, including by talking, drawing or
writing.
[b]Article 14 (Freedom of thought, conscience and religion):[/b] Children have the right to think and believe
what they want and to practise their religion, as long as they are not stopping other people from enjoying
their rights. Parents should help guide their children in these matters. The Convention respects the rights
and duties of parents in providing religious and moral guidance to their children. Religious groups around
the world have expressed support for the Convention, which indicates that it in no way prevents parents
from bringing their children up within a religious tradition. At the same time, the Convention recognizes
that as children mature and are able to form their own views, some may question certain religious
practices or cultural traditions. The Convention supports children's right to examine their beliefs, but it
also states that their right to express their beliefs implies respect for the rights and freedoms of others.

This is not the whole document but I draw attention to article 14.......

[i<3franciscans]

I have not had the time to read through everything, but I am praying for you!

[maximillion]

[quote][color=#282828]Parents should help guide their children in these matters.[/color][/quote]

Help guide them, not dictate what they do. For someone who is fifteen I think the parents are breaking the convention in actively preventing from carrying out her own wishes in relation to her chosen spiritual path.

HOWEVER......I also agree that an all out battle or a legal battle is NOT a good idea.
Get that priest involved asap.

[somethingfishy]

[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1339004154' post='2441812']
[b]Article 14 (Freedom of thought, conscience and religion):[/b] Children have the right to think and believe
what they want and to practise their religion, as long as they are not stopping other people from enjoying
their rights. Parents should help guide their children in these matters. The Convention respects the rights
and duties of parents in providing religious and moral guidance to their children. Religious groups around
the world have expressed support for the Convention, which indicates that it in no way prevents parents
from bringing their children up within a religious tradition. At the same time, the Convention recognizes
that as children mature and are able to form their own views, some may question certain religious
practices or cultural traditions. The Convention supports children's right to examine their beliefs, but it
also states that their right to express their beliefs implies respect for the rights and freedoms of others.

This is not the whole document but I draw attention to article 14.......
[/quote]

The U.S. has not ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, therefore it is not in any way legally binding within the U.S.

[AnneLine]

Exactly... that UN convention isn't binding here. There are some freedom of religion issues, as several of you pointed out, but it will be VERY hard to get those going in this case with Monja being 15 and living in her parents home.

On an even more on a practical level -- Monja, you don't want to get your parents even more upset than they already are. They could cut off your internet access, or decide to home school you. Right now you have support from us, and you have your relationship with God. They can't touch that. Don't push going to Mass much further, or you may regret it. Just ask your Pastor what you should do and obey.Ask your pastor, and just trust that God will only allow what is best for your growth closer to God.

I really think the best course is just take this one day at a time and demonstrate that YOU are not a threat and that being a Catholic is not a threat. When they see this -- and it will probably take a little while -- they may calm down. Either way, you are following God's will for you right now.

(Edited for typos)

Edited June 6, 2012 by AnneLine