I Am In Need Of Advice

[AnneLine]

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1339245983' post='2442881']
Quite true, Mantellata, but since the first commandment given to Man is "be fruitful and multiply" [Genesis 8:16-18 -- actually, it was given before, but at that time God had not yet created human beings], there is, for Jews, a dilemma about the single life. Just as we put no particular value on perpetual virginity, willfully not procreating [most rabbis claim "be fruitful" means one child of each sex, and "multiply" means one more] is a sin. Judaism has several categories of describing girls/young women which got lost in the Greek translation so the Church made distinctions which are meaningless for us [only the priestly caste MUST marry virgins; however, if a man marries a woman he has been told is a virgin, and discovers she is not, he is entitled to divorce her, and keep her dowry.

Enough digression. The table off which a Jewish family eats is referred to as a "Temple in miniature" and so much of Jewish practice is family-oriented that the single Jew usually finds him/herself rather outside things. It is said that God created the world in 6 days, and ever since then has been arranging shidduchim ["matches", i.e. marriages]

Contrariwise, there is the story of the man who went to his rabbi and demanded the rabbi write for him a Bill of Divorcement. "Don't you know," the rabbi said, "that when a couple divorces the very angels in Heaven weep?"

"Let them," replied the unhappy husband, "I want to rejoice".
[/quote]

Really interesting comments, Antigonos!

I found it very interesting, when I was taking my counseling training, that Erik Erikson (who came from a Jewish family) stressed the value of being 'generative' as part of the necessary work of people to move through the adulthood stage. Achieving success in creating marriage and family bonds and in finding useful work are both connected with that stage.

For most people, being 'generative' (bring new life into the world) comes through marriage and family life - i.e., through physical reproduction. But when I did my training, our secular teachers stressed to us that there were other ways of being 'generative' -- one could pass on our gift, wisdom, etc. to a new generation in a different way, through work, through mentoring others, as a teacher, as a counselor. As my counseling work focuses on career (helping people figure out what kind of work they are called to do and how to move forward in that work), bereavement (how to deal with losses and death, and again, move forward to make a positive contribution come out of those losses) and integrating spirituality into everyday life (again, how to bring God to others and find God in every aspect of human life), I find the concept of looking at 'generativeness' creatively as a very exciting and life-giving way of making our lives fruitful. I

am undoubtedly influenced in my opinion because I did discern religious life for many years, and also because my husband and I were not fortunate enough to be blessed by children. BUT, I have MANY people that I have mentored and helped, and I like to think that my work is akin to that of religious sisters.... he and I also foster people and create 'family' in many ways, even if we have not borne them....

I loved what you said about the table being the 'temple in miniature' -- I had one spiritual director who said that he felt sometimes that being in my home felt like we were 'sitting around God's kitchen table.' Your cmment makes his description much more precious to me.... What an amesome thing if we could have God be the heart and head of all of our homes.....

And I LOOOOOOVED the comment about the guy who sought the divorce! (I guess we shouldn't rejoice in the dissolution of a marriage.... but I bet that guy sure would have hoped that his rabbi might determine that 'no marriage had taken place, so go in peace!' )

It is exciting to me to note what a joy it is to share what we have in common and to respectfully listen and learn from each other where differences exist... as I noted in my thoughs on the Juchu thread..... this is what true Ecumenism is.... all of us knowing who we are and what we believe, and sharing respectfully, rejoicing in the insights that God has given us..... and finding the places where we can find connection.

What a joy it is to have you connected with us, Antigonos!!!!!

Edited June 9, 2012 by AnneLine

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Lil'Monster' timestamp='1339210227' post='2442792']
I agree with all the advices here. I know I shouldn't blabbled my mouth....I mean by my fingers...over facebook....but I am not ashamed....You realize I have been kinda discerning on and off about less than a year...but I have been seriously discerning since the May Retreat.
.....

All I wanted to hear (or texted) from her was "razzle dazzle! I am so proud and happy that you are being opened to God's will! I don't understand what it means to be a nun or discerning religious life. But you can tell me about it if you would like to."
[/quote]

Not everyone will understand your vocation choices ... it's par for the course!

And as far as having "blabbed your mouth", it's all good. You have every right to do so ... just know that stuff like this will come up.

Finally re: your temper/getting angry. It isn't easy not to do so if you're already prone to it (I am ... so I know very well the challenge that it is to keep your razzle dazzle). Just remember one thing ... God is "slow to anger," and if He calls us to be like Himself then we need to do what we can to get to that point.

[MonjaFutura]

Well, ya can't take back what you told her. My personal belief has always been that things always happen for a reason so I have very few regrets. My Protestant friends don't really understand the nun thing either. I'm still having a hard time explaining things to them. I don't know what I'd say, cuz I still don't but I'll definitely pray for you because God would definitely know what to say!

[krissylou]

[quote name='Lil'Monster' timestamp='1339195234' post='2442722']
Sup fellow discerners, nuns, priests, and the like!


I need advice...I really do!


Anyway today I was texting my Protestant friend and it was just a regular convo about her younger sister's graduation party, etc. Then the convo became a little more serious! But I had to cut it short cuz I had to work at home.

So here is the convo:

Her: "So I saw on fb that you were thinking about being a nun"

Me: "Yeah..long story but yep its true..."

Her: "Well what made you want to do that?"

Me: "Jesus...he has a way...I want to love him more."

Her: "But how does being a nun make you love him even more than you do now?"

Me: "Well everyone has a vocation. Marriage, religious life (nuns, priests), and single. God wants us to be happy, etc. It's kinda hard to explain though. When I was on a retreat..I heard this voice in my heart teeling me not to worry. It was so beautiful. You know I asked myself that question a lot..I need 2 pray and wait. Remember the rich guy came up to Jesus and he told him to sell everything? but he went away sad...that doesn't mean to sell everything..just surrender everything to the Lord. I am so bad at explaining."

Her: "So was he telling you that you should be a nun or that he was gonna provide you a man in His timing? Well yes we should surrender our lives to let God use us but I am not sure that being a nun is the way to do that. Because I have surrendered my life for God to use and I am not a nun. Because if you are a nun you cant ever get married. I dont think I was made to be single all my life. Some ppl aren't. Are you?"


Then I told her that I had to work and we could talk on facebook later on. But she sent me a message saying that she doesn't have internet at her home but she will catch me later on Monday.


Anyways I kept on praying "Come, Holy Spirit! Give me your wisdom, etc" I felt so bad that I couldn't give her the right answers and also texting costs me too.


So what you guys think? I need advice....I don't know what to say to her....Got any advice for me? Will you also pray for me too. Thank you guys!
[/quote]

Well, from how you described it, she doesn't sound attacking. She sounds curious.

And you haven't DECIDED TO ENTER. You're exploring. You're being deliberate about considering whether this is your path.

So, I'd say, if talking to her makes life more difficult for you then maybe she's not one to talk to.

But as a general rule, discerning in community (not just us here on VS but people who actually know you in real life) is a good thing.

So, in that first conversation, when she says "I don't think I was meant to be single all my life. Some people aren't. Are you?" I think that's a really interesting statement. Because she's NOT saying "celibacy is a horrible and unnatural thing." She's saying "Some people aren't meant to be celibate." Everyone here agrees!

So, when she asks "are you?" I think it's totally legitimate to say "well some people are and some people aren't. As for whether I am, that's what I'm trying to discern!"

You don't need to convince her. But that doesn't mean you should tape your mouth shut. You do need to (eventually) come to some clarity within yourself. From what you've said, this person sounds like a good egg. It could be that conversations with her may be one element of what brings you to clarity in your discernment.

[Antigonos]

"but I bet that guy sure would have hoped that his rabbi might determine that 'no marriage had taken place, so go in peace!' )"

~~~~~Divorce is permitted in Jewish Law, and no stigma attaches to it, so the rabbi did not have to make a judgement. In fact, no rabbi is needed for a divorce, except to put the bill of divorcement into the correct legal language. Any scholar could do it himself, really. Only the priestly caste is/was required to adhere to a higher standard, and btw, they could divorce, too. [In view of the fact that the Temple does not exist today, those Jews who are descended from Aaron have little to do, really, apart from blessing the congregation at specific times, but they still have certain restrictions such as not being allowed to touch a dead body or enter a cemetery]

Thanks for the kind words, by the way!

Edited June 9, 2012 by Antigonos

[mantellata]

Catholic theology would have it that the consecrated life did not exist before Christ - and had Christ not modeled it, and proposed it - it wouldn't be an option.

I always love your insights Antigonos --- it's good for this gentile to know her heritage --- salvation is from the Jews.

[Lil'Monster]

This is what I sent her today:



"You see I am in the beginning process of discerning Religious Life so I am new to this sort of thing. I don't really know how I can explain this but I will try. I am in love with Jesus and trying to find out how he wants me to express that love in relationship to him. I have realized that if I become a Nun, I can't ever get married and have a family. But a Nun is called to a life of being the Spouse of Jesus Christ. Physically she cannot have children but spiritually she can adopt Many children through her love, through her prayers, and through her support. On the other hand, a wife and mother physically has children and raises them to be children of God. Love can make us do crazy things, for an example, a young woman gives up everything in the world to be a Nun! That is crazy and yet so beautiful! I am not flushing the idea of marriage down the toilet but I don't think that I was called to that life. And I think marriage is so beautiful too! God calls people to marriage, religious life, or single life so they can grow MUCH more in love with Him and they will be overwhelming amounts of love, grace, joy, and peace! You may not be abled to fully understand the concept of Religious Life but that is ok! You wouldn't be the first and the won't be the last. You are not alone! Anyways, please pray for me in my discernment and for me to embrace God's Will."



She hasn't replied....

[emmaberry]

[quote name='mantellata' timestamp='1339272957' post='2442971']
Catholic theology would have it that the consecrated life did not exist before Christ - and had Christ not modeled it, and proposed it - it wouldn't be an option.
[/quote]

I thought Mary was consecrated and that's why she is a perpetual virgin? I am a newer Catholic so I might be wrong on this. Thanks!




[quote name='Lil'Monster' timestamp='1339471306' post='2443742']
This is what I sent her today:



"You see I am in the beginning process of discerning Religious Life so I am new to this sort of thing. I don't really know how I can explain this but I will try. I am in love with Jesus and trying to find out how he wants me to express that love in relationship to him. I have realized that if I become a Nun, I can't ever get married and have a family. But a Nun is called to a life of being the Spouse of Jesus Christ. Physically she cannot have children but spiritually she can adopt Many children through her love, through her prayers, and through her support. On the other hand, a wife and mother physically has children and raises them to be children of God. Love can make us do crazy things, for an example, a young woman gives up everything in the world to be a Nun! That is crazy and yet so beautiful! I am not flushing the idea of marriage down the toilet but I don't think that I was called to that life. And I think marriage is so beautiful too! God calls people to marriage, religious life, or single life so they can grow MUCH more in love with Him and they will be overwhelming amounts of love, grace, joy, and peace! You may not be abled to fully understand the concept of Religious Life but that is ok! You wouldn't be the first and the won't be the last. You are not alone! Anyways, please pray for me in my discernment and for me to embrace God's Will."



She hasn't replied....
[/quote]

That sounds good! I am sure she hasn't replied because you gave her a lot to think about and ponder.

Edited June 12, 2012 by emmaberry

[Lil'Monster]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1339471701' post='2443749']


That sounds good! I am sure she hasn't replied because you gave her a lot to think about and ponder.
[/quote]

Thank yeah! I wrote it down in less than 20 minutes..it came from my heart. After I was done I read it to my parents which they told me that was enough to tell my friend.


True! I sure did! I don't know what to do if she comes back with even more questions.....

[Strictlyinkblot]

That's a great way to explain your discernment! I hope it all goes well with your friend. When I told my best friend she was very upset but she called me the next day and said 'I've prayed about and... Its okay. I'm with you no matter what you decide.'

[mantellata]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1339471701' post='2443749']
I thought Mary was consecrated and that's why she is a perpetual virgin? I am a newer Catholic so I might be wrong on this. Thanks!
[/quote]

Mary is always a special case. Things are always "pre-emptive" in lieu of Christ -- think about her redemption -- it was before Christ died - BUT - still because Christ died.

Mary was not a perpetual virgin because she was consecrated - but rather was a perpetual virgin because of the special mission to be Mother of God. That Mary made a vow is up for debate (and you can fall on either side of the debate and still be a good Catholic (with distinctions of course) -- however I fall on the side that not only was she consecrated to God at an early age but that she in some fashion intended to [u]give[/u] herself perpetually to God (like a vow). The consecration however was not the motivating factor but the will and the heart of the Mother since she through prayer had graced understanding - even though she still traveled in faith and did not know the full plan of God.

Of course... there are likely some Franciscans out there who would want to put forth the idea that the Immaculate Conception was the reason Mary became Mother of God .................... but then we will really hijack this thread.

[b]Little Mon[/b] - Very nice post. What is wonderful about your approach is that you aren't trying to justify your decision nor are you saying you are doing anything but discerning ( you haven't thrown marriage out) but really are just asking for prayers -- which she would be able to get behind even if she disagrees about religious life. It probably is helping you clarify your own understanding of your vocation no?

[Sister Marie]

LM - great job just speaking from the heart that was beautiful and much more touching than any amount of theological explanation would have been!

If she asks you questions just keep speaking from the heart and if you don't know the answer - be honest - it's okay not to have it all figured out right away!

[maximillion]

[quote][color=#282828]If she asks you questions just keep speaking from the heart and if you don't know the answer - be honest - it's okay not to have it all figured out right away! [/color][/quote]

Amen to that! Some of us still haven't got it figured out!

I agree that it was clearly from the heart and therefore authentic. Well done.

[savvy]

Lil Mon- It's razzle dazzle

[Lil'Monster]

Thanks


Ok she did responded with

"okay i will pray for you to know God's will. what do you mean by religious life tho? you mean being a nun? what exactly do nuns do? You dont' think you were meant to get married?"


Hmmm I got to think about it some more before I answer her. Any suggestions?