Non-catholics Have Feelings Too

[Archangel Raphael]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='May 26 2004, 07:11 PM'] Justin,
One thing. Although you made some decent points here as far as Catholics and Protestants (and Im still more prot than cath right now)
Yeah, its real easy to make comments on how some Catholics arent Catholics in the sense that they dont 'practice' thier faith.
On the other hand though, it belittles us all (human) to continue with this 'this one doesnt and this one does' carp.
We are all connected, and thats the catch. Whether we like it or not. Some may not think so, but after doing some reading on F. Sheed, alot of things are falling into place for me.
You, brother...are my brother.

I'm not saying that your post is wrong...but it sounds more angry than it needs to be.

We are all so far from perfect that criticism only pushes up farther away from each other than need.
Read F. Sheed if ya get the chance.
I'm starting to understand why Jesus preferred sinners.

Way cool.


Peace.
Dutchess QF (just this week) [/quote]
I'm sorry it it seems a bit angry, but in respect too, don't expect me not to get emotional either about it. Its a matter that hurts me, but I did it in the most calm way I could. Even Jesus got angry, so angry that He turned over tables and made a huge mess at the temple. Of course there is a line between controlled and uncontrolled anger, I want to believe I'm operating under the controlled part, but no one's perfect I guess But thank you for your input

[Anna]

There are corporal works (works we do bodily) and spiritual works.

Some examples are the [u]Corporal Works of Mercy[/u]:
Clothe the naked
Feed the hungry
Give drink to the thirsty
Shelter the homeless
Care for the sick
Visit the imprisoned
Bury the dead

[u]Spiritual Works of Mercy[/u]:
Admonish the sinner
Instruct the ignorant
Counsel the doubtful
Comfort the sorrowful
Bear wrongs patiently
Forgive all injuries
Pray for the living and the dead

[Katholikos]

Raphael,

Please learn the basics of the Catholic religion before you try to explain it to others. I'll be glad to send you a book if you will accept it and read it. Let me know and send me your snail mail addy by private email. I'll send you an itty bitty book at first, just the bare basics, and a big book later if you're open to receiving it.

No one "gets saved." There is no such thing as "instant salvation" in true, original Christianity. "Instant salvation" is a 16th century heresy. We all must "work out our salvation in fear and trembling" over our entire lifetime, as St. Paul tell us (Philippians 2:12). And "whoever endures to the end will be saved" Mt 10:22. And again, from St. Mark, "But the one who perseveres to the end (of his lifetime) will be saved" (13:13).

I am critical of the false teachings of Protestantism but not of Protestants. I used to be one.

Peace be to you and to all,


JMJ Likos

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='May 26 2004, 06:11 PM'] Justin,
One thing. Although you made some decent points here as far as Catholics and Protestants (and Im still more prot than cath right now)
Yeah, its real easy to make comments on how some Catholics arent Catholics in the sense that they dont 'practice' thier faith.
On the other hand though, it belittles us all (human) to continue with this 'this one doesnt and this one does' carp.
We are all connected, and thats the catch. Whether we like it or not. Some may not think so, but after doing some reading on F. Sheed, alot of things are falling into place for me.
You, brother...are my brother.

I'm not saying that your post is wrong...but it sounds more angry than it needs to be.

We are all so far from perfect that criticism only pushes up farther away from each other than need.
Read F. Sheed if ya get the chance.
I'm starting to understand why Jesus preferred sinners.

Way cool.


Peace.
Dutchess QF (just this week) [/quote]
Quietfire,

Which book of Sheed's are you reading? Theology for Beginners and Theology and Sanity are the ones I have. Scrumptious reading! This is a man who can think clearly and write clearly what he thinks. They're high on my list of favorite books.

JMJ Jay (Likos)

[Katholikos]

Quietfire wrote:

[i]You, brother...are my brother.[/i]

This is a scientifically true statement, as well as a religious truth. Genetic studies have proven that we are all children of a single man and woman. And that we are all out of Africa. We can talk about it on another thread if anyone is interested.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[Quietfire]

Blessing Brother Likos.

Sheed is my new instant hero.
I got theology for beginners off of ebay, with no idea what I would discover, but figured if I ever wanted to be as good as YOU in debate, then I would need to start somewhere.

THIS MAN ROCKS. And I fell in love with this book after the first page. So now I am on a hunt for some of his other stuff. Theology and Sanity is next. But I know, I will read Theology for Beginners over and over again.

If you want to start another thread on our community to each other, fine. But I gotta warn you, I'm still learning. (the Africa thing is a new one on me)


Love and Peace all.

[Archangel Raphael]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='May 26 2004, 07:41 PM'] Raphael,

Please learn the basics of the Catholic religion before you try to explain it to others. I'll be glad to send you a book if you will accept it and read it. Let me know and send me your snail mail addy by private email. I'll send you an itty bitty book at first, just the bare basics, and a big book later if you're open to receiving it.

No one "gets saved." There is no such thing as "instant salvation" in true, original Christianity. "Instant salvation" is a 16th century heresy. We all must "work out our salvation in fear and trembling" over our entire lifetime, as St. Paul tell us (Philippians 2:12). And "whoever endures to the end will be saved" Mt 10:22. And again, from St. Mark, "But the one who perseveres to the end (of his lifetime) will be saved" (13:13).

I am critical of the false teachings of Protestantism but not of Protestants. I used to be one.

Peace be to you and to all,


JMJ Likos [/quote]
Sorry I haven't responded in a while, but about your quote there:

I take your definition as 'instant salvation' to be that no one is truly Saved until they get to heaven, cause during our time on earth we are all subject to falliblity, yes? If so, then I agree with that. It's just a different way of looking at the term 'Saved.'

I guess the proper term is being 'Born Again.' When you accept Jesus into your heart, you are a new creation, a new being, a baby in the Spirit. Therefore through learning the Word, prayer, and attending church, you grow more and more in the Ways of the Lord and begin to develope in the Spirit. Just as we grow physically and mature, it is the very same thing with the Spirit.

I guess when the protestants say that we have salvation, is cause when someone asks Christ to come into our hearts, it means that if someone were to die five minutes later, they would be with Jesus. Or if someone was on their death bed, and knew in their heart they screwed up in their life, and was repentant of it, then I believe too if that person accepted Christ that they would gain salvation.

So perhaps the proper term to use here, is being Born Again.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Archangel Raphael' date='May 27 2004, 01:20 PM'] Sorry I haven't responded in a while, but about your quote there:

I take your definition as 'instant salvation' to be that no one is truly Saved until they get to heaven, cause during our time on earth we are all subject to falliblity, yes? If so, then I agree with that. It's just a different way of looking at the term 'Saved.'

I guess the proper term is being 'Born Again.' When you accept Jesus into your heart, you are a new creation, a new being, a baby in the Spirit. Therefore through learning the Word, prayer, and attending church, you grow more and more in the Ways of the Lord and begin to develope in the Spirit. Just as we grow physically and mature, it is the very same thing with the Spirit.

I guess when the protestants say that we have salvation, is cause when someone asks Christ to come into our hearts, it means that if someone were to die five minutes later, they would be with Jesus. Or if someone was on their death bed, and knew in their heart they screwed up in their life, and was repentant of it, then I believe too if that person accepted Christ that they would gain salvation.

So perhaps the proper term to use here, is being Born Again. [/quote]
You are born anew in Baptism for Jesus said Unless you are born again of water and spirit, refering to Baptism. So this does not go with just accepting Jesus, we are born anew at Baptism we become sons in The Son.

St. Paul writes we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Faith without works is dead, and it is written in the end all will be judged according to their deeds.

It is alot more complicated than accepting Jesus, it is work, it is a cross, unless one take up his cross and follow me he cannot be my disciple.

I agree if one is on his death bed and didn't know better and repented with a sorrowful heart, anything with God is possible.

Pax
Jason

[Archangel Raphael]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='May 26 2004, 06:55 PM'] The Apostles Creed isnt' the Rosary. Apparently those years of Catholic school didn't teach you much.

Justin, may I stress that her name is ANNA, with an A not an E (sorry, proper names is a pet peeve of mine, no offense intended). [/quote]
Well like I said not all schools, Catholic or Protestant alike, are perfect. Again I don't attack the Church, I just point out that each individual has a choice to accept the Word or not. You gotta understand, it's not the Church teachings that doesn't work. It's usually the people who try to teach them sometimes. Most of the time, and with any denomination, they teach law yet not love with it. It all comes down to balance again, God is a God of balance. You can't preach about all love yet no law, or all law and no love. You gotta have both, and alot of people, even in the Catholic church (cause yes, we're not perfect, we're human) get so caught up in the law, and forget the love too.

So therefore, even if Brittaney's teachers taught on the Rosary, and with Brittaney at the time caring not a thing about it, how would she remember it anyway? lol I mean, my Mom used to go to Catholic school, and the nuns there were royal jerks. Used to send her off home making her miss the bus (cause usually if one person was bad in class, ALL children had to then stay and they missed the bus) so she had to walk through some of the most bad neighborhoods in Philly, her little 6 year old self, two miles home.

Does this mean the Church as evil or corrupt? Nooo, it just means some people are all law, and no love. That's only the point I'm making Which is why I guess if you really want your child in a Catholic school, also make sure the teachers really love the Lord and won't abuse your child in anyway. And that same word goes out to Christian non-Catholic schools too.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]So therefore, even if Brittaney's teachers taught on the Rosary, and with Brittaney at the time caring not a thing about it, how would she remember it anyway? lol I mean, my Mom used to go to Catholic school,[b] and the nuns there were royal jerks.[/b] Used to send her off home making her miss the bus (cause usually if one person was bad in class, ALL children had to then stay and they missed the bus) so she had to walk through some of the most bad neighborhoods in Philly, her little 6 year old self, two miles home.[/quote]

Easy Cowboy be nice!
I see something here now it is starting to make sense!

[quote]Does this mean the Church as evil or corrupt? Nooo, it just means some people are all law, and no love. That's only the point I'm making  Which is why I guess if you really want your child in a Catholic school, also make sure the teachers really love the Lord and won't abuse your child in anyway. And that same word goes out to Christian non-Catholic schools too. [/quote]

Thats my job I will teach my children by example and everything I know so school will just be a daily activity. They will know The One True Catholic Faith, we will say the Rosary, they will be taught to AVOID and look out for error. If they see it I will teach them to help correct it. No by God's good grace not this familiy, I pray Lord for your strength to be a good father to my familiy.Amen. That this familiy gives witness to Your One Holy Catholic Church with our whole heart, mind, strength and soul!!!

Pax
Jason

[Archangel Raphael]

[quote name='Jason' date='May 27 2004, 02:29 PM'] You are born anew in Baptism for Jesus said Unless you are born again of water and spirit, refering to Baptism. So this does not go with just accepting Jesus, we are born anew at Baptism we become sons in The Son. [/quote]
I ask this mainly in curiousity, and to see your view of the matter. But how do you know Jesus wasn't speaking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit instead of water? I mean maybe there's a verse about it that I'm missing? Other than that, cause John the Baptist himself said in Luke 3:16, "I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall paptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" So then the reason why Jesus Himself was baptized in water was cause He was there to fullfill prophecy and also law. And no I'm not against water baptism, I myself have been baptized in the Catholic church and also in other churches (I forget what reason why, can't recall). I just am not so sure if I buy the 'Water Baptism + Believe = Saved' deal.


[quote]St. Paul writes we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Faith without works is dead, and it is written in the end all will be judged according to their deeds.

It is alot more complicated than accepting Jesus, it is work, it is a cross, unless one take up his cross and follow me he cannot be my disciple.[/quote]

And I agree with that, that's a point I've already made clear I believe in. It's just a different way your wording it, but you say the very same thing I just said in my other post. We can't sit around and do whatever we want after we accept Jesus, we have to do what He wants, we gotta excersise our Faith and grow in the Spirit. Which is the very same thing your stating.

Edited May 27, 2004 by Archangel Raphael

[Archangel Raphael]

[quote]Easy Cowboy   be nice!
I see something here now it is starting to make sense![/quote]

Dude, even Jesus himself called Herod a fox. And John the Baptist called the pharasees a brood of vipers.

Edited May 27, 2004 by Archangel Raphael

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]I ask this mainly in curiousity, and to see your view of the matter. But how do you know Jesus wasn't speaking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit instead of water? I mean maybe there's a verse about it that I'm missing? Other than that, cause John the Baptist himself said in Luke 3:16, "I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall paptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" So then the reason why Jesus Himself was baptized in water was cause He was there to fullfill prophecy and also law. And no I'm not against water baptism, I myself have been baptized in the Catholic church and also in other churches (I forget what reason why, can't recall). I just am not so sure if I buy the 'Water Baptism + Believe = Saved' deal.[/quote]

[quote][b]John 3:5-6[/b]
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, [b]no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.[/b] What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit." [/quote]

[quote][b]CCC on Baptism[/b]
1224 Our Lord voluntarily submitted himself to the baptism of St. John, intended for sinners, in order to "fulfill all righteousness."19 Jesus' gesture is a manifestation of his self-emptying.20 The Spirit who had hovered over the waters of the first creation descended then on the Christ as a prelude of the new creation, and the Father revealed Jesus as his "beloved Son."21

1225 In his Passover Christ opened to all men the fountain of Baptism. He had already spoken of his Passion, which he was about to suffer in Jerusalem, as a "Baptism" with which he had to be baptized.22 The blood and water that flowed from the pierced side of the crucified Jesus are types of Baptism and the Eucharist, the sacraments of new life.23 From then on, it is possible "to be born of water and the Spirit"24 in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

1235 The sign of the cross, on the threshold of the celebration, marks with the imprint of Christ the one who is going to belong to him and signifies the grace of the redemption Christ won for us by his cross.

1236 The proclamation of the Word of God enlightens the candidates and the assembly with the revealed truth and elicits the response of faith, which is inseparable from Baptism. Indeed Baptism is "the sacrament of faith" in a particular way, since it is the sacramental entry into the life of faith.

1237 Since Baptism signifies liberation from sin and from its instigator the devil, one or more exorcisms are pronounced over the candidate. the celebrant then anoints him with the oil of catechumens, or lays his hands on him, and he explicitly renounces Satan. Thus prepared, he is able to confess the faith of the Church, to which he will be "entrusted" by Baptism.39

1238 The baptismal water is consecrated by a prayer of epiclesis (either at this moment or at the Easter Vigil). the Church asks God that through his Son the power of the Holy Spirit may be sent upon the water, so that those who will be baptized in it may be "born of water and the Spirit."40

1239 The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate's head.[/quote]

[Archangel Raphael]

[quote]John 3:5-6
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit." [/quote]

Alright cool thanks Looks like I may have a couple friends I have to get baptized.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Archangel Raphael' date='May 27 2004, 01:20 PM']I take your definition as 'instant salvation' to be that no one is truly Saved until they get to heaven, cause during our time on earth we are all subject to falliblity, yes?  If so, then I agree with that.  It's just a different way of looking at the term 'Saved.' 

I guess the proper term is being 'Born Again.'  When you accept Jesus into your heart, you are a new creation, a new being, a baby in the Spirit.  Therefore through learning the Word, prayer, and attending church, you grow more and more in the Ways of the Lord and begin to develope in the Spirit.  Just as we grow physically and mature, it is the very same thing with the Spirit.

I guess when the protestants say that we have salvation, is cause when someone asks Christ to come into our hearts, it means that if someone were to die five minutes later, they would be with Jesus.  Or if someone was on their death bed, and knew in their heart they screwed up in their life, and was repentant of it, then I believe too if that person accepted Christ that they would gain salvation. 

So perhaps the proper term to use here, is being Born Again.[/quote]
AR,

I just posted this on another thread. The "born again" experience that Protestants believe results from "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior" was unheard of during the first 16 centuries of Christianity. It is not biblical. And it was not taught by Jesus and His Apostles.

Every properly baptized Christian (and I don't mean by immersion) has been "born again," i.e. is "baptized of water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5).

Born again is a mistranslation of the Greek word [i]anothen[/i]. Born [i]"anothen"[/i] means "born from above" or "born anew." Newer translations have corrected this error.

"Instant salvation" is taught by many Protestant churches; it is unbiblical and untrue. One is not "saved" in the sense that he's assured from the moment he "accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior" that he's going to heaven, as many (but not all) Protestant denominations claim.

I read your exchanges with Anna on another thread (how to keep our kids catholic, or how to Protestant-proof our kids). Please answer her question.

JMJ Likos

[mulls]

water = natural birth

spirit = new birth


without being born of water and spirit...or to emphasize...born of water AND spirit

not about baptism here

[theculturewarrior]

Non-Catholics have feelings too? Is that a point of debate? (Cause I'm pretty sure they don't! )

[Paladin D]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 27 2004, 04:55 PM'] water = natural birth

spirit = new birth


without being born of water and spirit...or to emphasize...born of water AND spirit

not about baptism here [/quote]
Then what is the point of Christ even mentioning [b]"water"[/b]? That's like saying...

[i]"If you are not born, you are not alive"[/i]

[mulls]

3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.


--here Jesus talks about being born again, which obviously is not the first birth, right?


"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"


--Nicodemus is like what'chu talkin bout Willis? i already been born!


5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.


--alright, here's the verse in question...Jesus refers to the natural birth (water....like when a woman's water breaks) and the spiritual birth


6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit.


--as in verse 5, Jesus refers to the natural birth, than to the spiritual birth.


looks as if Jesus had to distinguish between the 2 births for Nicodemus, who was alive in the flesh, like we all are, but needed to be reborn in the Spirit.

[mulls]

here's the footnote from my bible:


[quote]"born of water and the Spirit" or "Physical birth is not enough. You must be born Spiritually." This alternate paraphrase interprets "born of water" as meaning the normal process observed during every human birth. Some think this means water baptism.[/quote]



oh and by the way this is from my Catholic Living Bible, which i found buried in my closet.

our 6th grade teacher made us study the bible for like 2 weeks during Lent i think, so that's why i have it, and i'm glad i still do.

Edited May 27, 2004 by mulls