Establishing Church Authority

[jasJis]

[b]ACTS 15:22-29[/b][quote]
Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question.

The apostles and elders, in agreement with the whole church, decided to choose representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas.  The ones chosen were Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers. This is the letter delivered by them:

"The apostles and the elders, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings.
Since we have heard that some of our number who went out without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.  So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth:
'It is the decision of the Holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.'"[/quote]
[b](KJV)[/b]
[quote]22: Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23: And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26: Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27: We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28: For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29: That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. [/quote]

Both Catholic Christians and most non-Catholic Christians are often slammed by "non-Denominationalists" for belonging to an organized religion. Above is from this Sunday 5-16 Readings (with the KJV too).
I'm curious to see how Catholics and other Christians would use these Scriptures to explain and identify Church Authority and justify the organized religions we blong to, and counter the arguement of 'non-Denominationalists' that Catholics and Christians are both wrong.

[mulls]

in my opinion, any solid non-catholic christian should have a non-denominational mentality, whether they belong to a denomination or not. let me know if this doesn't make sense, i'll clarify.

[jasJis]

mulls,
I'm getting a hint of what you mean, but I think you need to explain exactly what you are trying to avoid with possessing a "non-denominational mentality" even if you belong to a denomination. It strikes me as not being loyal to seeing Christ in others and thinking that you, as an individual, is a self-sufficient organism and not dependent upon the Body of Christ.

[mulls]

Jas,

the common mistake that I think you just made is only counting one's own denomination as the Body of Christ.

every Christian should be dependent on the Body of Christ (to a certain extent) for wisdom, fellowship, family, etc etc etc.

but if a baptist goes out of his way to only stick to baptists as being the Body of Christ, then that is wrong wrong wrong. same with anyone in any denomination, and non-denominationalists as well.

all believers should, as you say, strive to be loyal to see Christ in others...and others means EVERYONE from every denomination...not just their own.

simply, the non-denominational mentality is that you are aware that your denomination isn't perfect, or better than any others, despite whatever differences there may be.

[jasJis]

mulls,
I DON'T think only Catholics make up the Body of Christ. All Christians, by very definition, make up the Body of Christ. Also, it is possible that what you and I call non-Christians, make up the Body of Christ. Being a member of the Body of Christ is simply dependent upon our accepting the Grace that Jesus merited for us on the Cross. Our understanding of this, and our ability to accept Grace is judged by God who alone knows what He's given us to know, and what He expects from us, and lies and distortions and blindness caused by ours and others sins in this world may cripple our abilities.

In a certain sense, we must acknowledge the limitations of comprehension of individuals, and see that the comprehension and knowledge of a greater body of persons is valuable. In these Scripture passages, this point is made clear. Individually, Paul and Barnabas carry authority. Who can argue that Paul, chosen by Jesus, doesn't have Authority. But still, they return to an Organized Church to both seek direction from, and receive Authority, of a greater body of the Church.

Different Denominations exist because Christians group togehter to seek God the Best way they understand, individually, and with the aid of others. Two human heads are better than one. I accept at face value that ALL denominations assume they are the Best Way and Better than Others. If that was not the case, then anyone who professes any denomination is a liar.

I'm seeking arguments why to have Denominations in the first place. I'm not about to argue Denominations because I'm of the opinion all Denominations share much more in common than in difference and that's the only perspective I care to discuss that subject.

[the lumberjack]

Jas, and the rest of the beautiful people here at phatmass...who I'm SURE have missed me...

as much as I would LOVE to agree with you that all CHRISITIANS make up the body of Christ...your own religion, by its documents and doctrine, prevents anyone that is a "noncatholic" from ever being a "true" Christian.

this is what has been posted by many of the more zealous members here at phatmass.

I view all my brothers and sisters in Christ, as that...brothers and sisters in Christ. Though their doctrine might err...as I'm sure mine does too, in some points, we are bound by Christ and follow Him as He leads us.

but, as I stated earlier, your own religion damns all protestants to hell, and unless we are "reconciled", or rather, assymilated...we will burn and suffer in hell according to the Catholic Church.

the Vatican II did nothing to remove any of the damnings placed upon us...and you know what?

I'm okay with that.

God bless.

[Dave]

Lumberjack, that subject has been dealt with before on here. Those Catholics who claim the Church teaches that non-Catholics are automatically hellbound are WRONG -- DEAD WRONG. The Church teaches no such thing!

[cmotherofpirl]

Baptism is entrance into the Body of Christ.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 17 2004, 12:21 PM'] Jas, and the rest of the beautiful people here at phatmass...who I'm SURE have missed me...

as much as I would LOVE to agree with you that all CHRISITIANS make up the body of Christ...your own religion, by its documents and doctrine, prevents anyone that is a "noncatholic" from ever being a "true" Christian.

this is what has been posted by many of the more zealous members here at phatmass.

I view all my brothers and sisters in Christ, as that...brothers and sisters in Christ. Though their doctrine might err...as I'm sure mine does too, in some points, we are bound by Christ and follow Him as He leads us.

but, as I stated earlier, your own religion damns all protestants to hell, and unless we are "reconciled", or rather, assymilated...we will burn and suffer in hell according to the Catholic Church.

the Vatican II did nothing to remove any of the damnings placed upon us...and you know what?

I'm okay with that.

God bless. [/quote]
lumberjack,

if by "damings placed upon us" you mean the anathemas of the previous councils, please know that an anathema is not a damnation to hell. it is a statement by the church that a person is not one w/ the church b/c of a certain action or belief. i think--tho i may be wrong--that an anathema implies excommunication as well. if so, this is not damnation either. the purpose of an excommunication is to show the person that he/she is in grave error, which should encourage repentance in the person so that person can be one w/ the Church again.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[the lumberjack]

then dave, what DO we DO about ALLLLL the anathemas layed out PRE Vatican II?

especially just for us protestant jokers?

the VII didn't undo any of them...

and as I've said before, unless we are all assymilated, we stand a VERY good chance at burning in hell for a good part of eternity...

which I wouldn't be too particularly fond of.

like fondu.

God bless.

[mulls]

let me be a little more blunt so we don't keep misunderstanding each other.


denominations smell of elderberries. the only reason for separation is to know what group of people are teaching what doctrines, and to keep away from those groups whose, as lumberjack stated, have doctrines that may be errant. and if they are in fact errant, that is no reason not to consult them as members of the church...we are indeed bound by Christ, and it is our duty to confer with each other and be of one accord as much as possible.

[the lumberjack]

and phat, if an anathema is excommunication to show me I'm in grave error and should repent...

and I don't repent in the way that the Catholic Church lays out I should, wouldn't that GRAVE ERROR be quite the condemning sin...couldn't it????

God Bless.

[the lumberjack]

and AMEN to MY brother mulls!!!!!

WOOHOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jasJis]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 17 2004, 01:29 PM'] let me be a little more blunt so we don't keep misunderstanding each other.


denominations smell of elderberries. the only reason for separation is to know what group of people are teaching what doctrines, and to keep away from those groups whose, as lumberjack stated, have doctrines that may be errant. and if they are in fact errant, that is no reason not to consult them as members of the church...we are indeed bound by Christ, and it is our duty to confer with each other and be of one accord as much as possible. [/quote]
By what you typed, Denominations don't smell of elderberries. That attitude is exactly un-biblical with the excerpt given. One has to turn to something greater than oneself to avoid errancy and to correct you. We can turn to Scripture, and a denomination that maintains correction (no matter what level of inerrancy we may feel that denom holds) for that correction.

What you typed is self contradictory.

"denominations smell of elderberries. the only reason for seperation is to know what group of people are teaching what doctrines," versus " ...it is our duty to confer with each other and be of one accord..."

Trying to stay on both sides of the fence is painful and unhealthy. :wink:

[Crusader_4]

Anyone who is baptised properly is therfore in the body of Christ...therfore they are under the authority of the Vicar of Christ on Earth regardless of their affiliation if they have been baptised. Also, This passage shows exactly how there is a centre of authority and hierachy within the Church.

[mulls]

no man, you're not getting my point of view.


when i see the word 'denomination,' i also see the word 'separation.'


the Body of Christ is not supposed to be separated, but we differ about certain things, so we are separated. and that's what smells of elderberries.


"One has to turn to something greater than oneself to avoid errancy and to correct you."

YEAH NO KIDDING. how did i imply anything to the contrary? of course i need to turn to the church, the Body of Christ which is greater than myself.

i'll turn to the people who i respect as wise brothers and sisters, as members of the church. i won't turn to people just because they belong to a specific denomination....but i will turn to those who are wise and humble and seeking the Lord, NO MATTER WHAT DENOMINATION they belong to. see the difference?

if you still think i'm self-contradictory with an unbiblical attitude, let me know, and i'll try to find an even more simple way of trying to explain my simple point. read my second post again.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 17 2004, 01:38 PM'] and phat, if an anathema is excommunication to show me I'm in grave error and should repent...

and I don't repent in the way that the Catholic Church lays out I should, wouldn't that GRAVE ERROR be quite the condemning sin...couldn't it????

God Bless. [/quote]
if you do end up in hell it is not b/c you were excommunicated but b/c you chose to persist in your sin. an excommunication is not a guarantee of "ur going to hell" b/c that person always has the opportunity to seek forgiveness. its the same w/ mortal sin. if u commit a mortal sin, ur not right then and there resigned to hell. it is only if you die w/o the sin being forgiven. basically, if u end up in hell it's ur bad.

also, tho i'm not entirely certain, i believe that anathemas/excommunications are only placed upon catholics who are originally in full communion w/ the church. if that were true, would anathemas even apply to non-catholics far removed from when the anathema was given?

i guess i better look that up.....

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Crusader_4]

well there maybe many members of the body but they are united under their baptism and it is us Humans that divide the body of Christ not God. If it was left to God there would be only one Church. Therefore it would be the Church he personally started because that is what he desired. Any Church that is not started personally by Christ is in competition with the Church that Christ started.

[mulls]

yes, us humans divide the Body of Christ.


humans are dumb. especially this one. thank God for His mercy.

[Crusader_4]

And this one as well. For I am dust and to dust i shall return (sobering words)