Establishing Church Authority

[dUSt]

[quote]the Body of Christ is not supposed to be separated, but we differ about certain things, so we are separated. and that's what smells of elderberries.[/quote]
Doesn't this show you that there needs to be an earthly authority to keep us all on the same page? Without that, we will never agree on anything. One of the reasons I remain to be Catholic is because I believe that the Catholic Church is the only establishment that has the universality and capability to bring all Christians together some day--as one. I see no chance of this happening in any other establishement or movement in the world.

[quote]i'll turn to the people who i respect as wise brothers and sisters, as members of the church. i won't turn to people just because they belong to a specific denomination....but i will turn to those who are wise and humble and seeking the Lord, NO MATTER WHAT DENOMINATION they belong to.  see the difference?[/quote]
I encourage you to study, or possibly even meet some of the brothers and sisters in some Catholic orders, such as the dominicans, or franciscan friars, or Legionaires of Christ (manchild of Mars ILL can tell you about them). If you do not see Christ in them, you will have a hard time seeing Christ in anybody.

God bless. I'll continue to pray that we both may grow in our love and understanding of what it means to be true followers of Christ.

[jasJis]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 17 2004, 10:52 PM'] no man, you're not getting my point of view.


when i see the word 'denomination,' i also see the word 'separation.'


the Body of Christ is not supposed to be separated, but we differ about certain things, so we are separated. and that's what smells of elderberries.


"One has to turn to something greater than oneself to avoid errancy and to correct you."

YEAH NO KIDDING. how did i imply anything to the contrary? of course i need to turn to the church, the Body of Christ which is greater than myself.

i'll turn to the people who i respect as wise brothers and sisters, as members of the church. i won't turn to people just because they belong to a specific denomination....but i will turn to those who are wise and humble and seeking the Lord, NO MATTER WHAT DENOMINATION they belong to. see the difference?

if you still think i'm self-contradictory with an unbiblical attitude, let me know, and i'll try to find an even more simple way of trying to explain my simple point. read my second post again. [/quote]
mulls,
I certainly get your point now. I wasn't trying to be obtuse or to pick a fight with you. My intent on this thread was to discuss the Positive purpose of ALL Christian Denominations and to establish the fact that we NEED a group of people to help guide us. I am not trying to argue 1 denom over/against/versus another denom.

If Christians would admit the fact that Jesus Christ established a Church, that the Holy Spirit works here on earth within individual hearts to personally help us and to guide us through others, Christian denominations should see that they 1st share a love of Christ as their goal and learn to respect each other for the Truths they SHARE instead of seeing 1st the Differences that divide.

All Christian denoms should be able to argue a logic to their existence that is a practically an identical arguement for each denom. I am Catholic because I am seeking God to the best of my ability. I am Catholic because of the positive Christian aid I have recieved in my journey of faith from Christians of many other denominations. I am not a knee-jerk basher of all other denoms. Any member of a denom who refuses to see 1st the Christian Truths that other denoms may hold is no different than anti-denominationalists.

Sin in the world screws up and disorders things that seperates us into denoms. The Holy Spirit in the world brings order and corrects things that brings us together. If we look to the order of the Holy Spirit, Christians would recognize that we are different parts of the Same Body (the Body of Christ).

[mulls]

[quote name='jasJis' date='May 18 2004, 09:30 AM']
If Christians would admit the fact that Jesus Christ established a Church, that the Holy Spirit works here on earth within individual hearts to personally help us and to guide us through others, Christian denominations should see that they 1st share a love of Christ as their goal and learn to respect each other for the Truths they SHARE instead of seeing 1st the Differences that divide.

All Christian denoms should be able to argue a logic to their existence that is a practically an identical arguement for each denom. I am Catholic because I am seeking God to the best of my ability. I am Catholic because of the positive Christian aid I have recieved in my journey of faith from Christians of many other denominations. I am not a knee-jerk basher of all other denoms. Any member of a denom who refuses to see 1st the Christian Truths that other denoms may hold is no different than anti-denominationalists.

Sin in the world screws up and disorders things that seperates us into denoms. The Holy Spirit in the world brings order and corrects things that brings us together. If we look to the order of the Holy Spirit, Christians would recognize that we are different parts of the Same Body (the Body of Christ). [/quote]
yes! amen!

[jasJis]

I didn't think we were that far apart from agreeing at a basic letter, though I was begining to think I was gone for too long.

So mulls, in your own words, how would you explain the Scripture passages for justifying Authority of "a" Church to someone who is completely committed to non-denominations. (Please keep in mind, I tend to assume ALL denoms are created with good intent, even if I believe they are mistaken!).

[mulls]

can you clarify that please, maybe with specfic scriptures?

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='May 17 2004, 09:52 PM'] if you do end up in hell it is not b/c you were excommunicated but b/c you chose to persist in your sin. an excommunication is not a guarantee of "ur going to hell" b/c that person always has the opportunity to seek forgiveness. its the same w/ mortal sin. if u commit a mortal sin, ur not right then and there resigned to hell. it is only if you die w/o the sin being forgiven. basically, if u end up in hell it's ur bad.

also, tho i'm not entirely certain, i believe that anathemas/excommunications are only placed upon catholics who are originally in full communion w/ the church. if that were true, would anathemas even apply to non-catholics far removed from when the anathema was given?

i guess i better look that up.....

pax christi,
phatcatholic [/quote]
what sin do I persist in? not being part of something I see to be incorrect?

I have nothing against you people here...your devotion to Christ...ABOVE ALLLLLLL else...your pursuit of God's truth...your love for God's work...BUT

I DO have something against the institution with which you align yourselves.

how you bow down before dumb, cold, dead statues...in rememberance, reverance, whatever you might call it...its still wrong. the bible points it out very well.

bring up the fact that the ark and the temple were made by man...fine...but remember GOD gave PRECISE instructions as to how to build them and what to use. even with all of its elegance and splendor, these things were still nothing compared to the glory that inhabited them...when God communed with the people...in the old testament.

you are not Jews, and neither are you in the old testament, and last I checked, no angel or voice from heaven has ever come down and given instructions to build statues to remember God's people...ever.

I've seen pictures of the pope kissing these statues... as if they were something holy, something sacred, almost like they were real people.

this is but a MINUTE portion of what I can't, and probly won't ever get over...

part of why I will never align myself with the Catholic Church...

so, phat, as I've said before, I probly won't ever "repent" as the Catholic Church wants me to...and if this gets me anathema from afterlife with the Catholic Church...I think I want it that way.

excommunicado por vida

God bless

Edited May 18, 2004 by the lumberjack

[jasJis]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2004, 01:24 PM'] can you clarify that please, maybe with specfic scriptures? [/quote]
Clarify what statement?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 18 2004, 01:30 PM']what sin do I persist in?  not being part of something I see to be incorrect?[/quote]
i didn't have any particular sin in mind. i was just operating under our pretend scenario that you were excommunicated for some reason.

[quote]I have nothing against you people here...your devotion to Christ...ABOVE ALLLLLLL else...your pursuit of God's truth...your love for God's work...BUT[/quote]
i'm glad that we have impressed u in some small way. it is unfortunate that there must be a qualifier at the end

[quote]how you bow down before dumb, cold, dead statues...in rememberance, reverance, whatever you might call it...its still wrong.  the bible points it out very well.[/quote]
maybe you and i can have a private debate here over this subject. i can assure you that we have read the scripture and we know ur arguments. we would not believe it if we thought it was anti-biblical.

[quote]bring up the fact that the ark and the temple were made by man...fine...but remember GOD gave PRECISE instructions as to how to build them and what to use.  even with all of its elegance and splendor, these things were still nothing compared to the glory that inhabited them...when God communed with the people...in the old testament.[/quote]
agreed

[quote]you are not Jews, and neither are you in the old testament, and last I checked, no angel or voice from heaven has ever come down and given instructions to build statues to remember God's people...ever.[/quote]
yes........but at the same time, catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the fulfillment of the OT Church. at any rate, proper montheism began w/ Judaism (as far as i know) so it would be naive to see no elements of Judaism in the present day Church.

[quote]I've seen pictures of the pope kissing these statues... as if they were something holy, something sacred, almost like they were real people.[/quote]
though this action may seem scandalous to you, it is the intent behind that action that means everything. my claim is that the intent is valid.

[quote]this is but a MINUTE portion of what I can't, and probly won't ever get over...

part of why I will never align myself with the Catholic Church...[/quote]
never say never i can't predict the future any more then you can

[quote]so, phat, as I've said before, I probly won't ever "repent" as the Catholic Church wants me to...and if this gets me anathema from afterlife with the Catholic Church...I think I want it that way.

excommunicado por vida[/quote]
lets just work on it one doctrine at a time. i'm willing to discuss venerating the saints, if that is ok w/ u. just let me know.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[mulls]

Jas,



[quote]So mulls, in your own words, how would you explain the Scripture passages for justifying Authority of "a" Church to someone who is completely committed to non-denominations.[/quote]



this....i'm thickheaded, dumb it down for me a little. show me those scripture passages.

[jasJis]

Acts 15:22-29[quote]22: Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23: And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26: Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27: We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28: For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29: That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. [/quote]The Church in Anitoch had a question about the requirements for Gentiles performing the Jewish acts of Obedience to God's Covenant. They had Paul and Barnabas with them, but it still wasn't good enough. Paul, Barnabas, Silas, and Judas to Antioch to seek the Holy Spirit in a greater Body of Church than the small Church to have the question answerd. They Larger Church answered the question, speaking in the Name of the Holy Spirit, stating that it can lay the burden and specify the burden. Like you said, we can't just rely on our own interpretation. Do you agree with this or would you state it differently?
I'm trying to see how various Christian denoms can refute non-denoms who seem to disregard the revelation of the Holy Spirit in others and only care what they seem to believe is revealed in their own heart.

[mulls]

i agree. the Holy Spirit certainly leads us, but if we err on our own accord, we need somewhere to go to clear it up, i.e., the church.


i don't really get it....are you assuming that non-denominationalists disregard everybody except themselves personally?

[mulls]

biggity bump

[jasJis]

My bad, mulls. I thought I replied.
[quote]are you assuming that non-denominationalists disregard everybody except themselves personally[/quote]Pretty close. I assume that non-denominationalists barely consider the differing opinion of others and hold private revalation in too high a regard which is why they discount all denominations as un-needed, un-wanted, and containing to much error to be of any benefit in developing a relationship with God.

[mulls]

hmm.

unless you know something that i don't, or have experienced something personally that i never have, i can honestly say that i've never seen any evidence of what you mention.

non-denominationalists recognize all believers as the church, and i'm sure would not be closed-minded enough not to seek wisdom and guidance outside of their own church.

to take what you say completely literally, members of the church would not even attend a church service or bible study, because each individual would be constantly disagreeing with each other over every little thing....right?

a person might not agree with what the pastor says, or what an elder says, and therefore would see that people in their own church are in too much error to help them grow in their relationship with God.

i don't think anybody would discount denominations as un-needed or un-wanted. non-denominationalists just don't want to be told that a certain denomination has it completely right, and have to adhere to that denomination's man-made rules (in some cases).

a non-denominationalist should seek wisdom and truth from all his brothers and sisters, and not discount anybody who doesn't run with his crew....or else he is being a hypocrite, being "denominational" in the bad sense.

[jasJis]

[quote]a non-denominationalist should seek wisdom and truth from all his brothers and sisters, and not discount anybody who doesn't run with his crew....or else he is being a hypocrite, being "denominational" in the bad sense.[/quote]Exactly. A group of non-denominationalists is an oxy-moron, there's no such thing. If you look to support, or receive support, from others with common religeious beliefs, that's a denomination. My experiences must be much different from yours because I have met many non-denominationalists that either:
1) call themselves that just to discount everyone else except those who agree with them so they do become a denomination,
or
2) discount everyone else and believe God will reveal whatever they need to them personally.
Both groups fail to recognize a Holy Spirit guided Authority outside of themselves and feel all Authority is revealed to themselves personally so if they disagree with someone, the other person is always wrong because it's not possible they could possess any Authority that hold weight over them.

[mulls]

gotcha. that stinks.


this is how i would think the non-denominationalists i know would describe themselves (myself included):


"we don't think that anybody has it completely right. we rely on God and His Holy Spirit to guide us and lead us to the things that we need to know in order to become closer to Him. we recognize all those who profess Christ as Lord as brothers and sisters, and we love them all equally, despite theological or doctrinal differences. we're just a group of believers who have come together to love each other and help each other to grow closer to the Lord together."


or something like that. you might say "where is the authority in that?" to which i would reply our ultimate authority is God (i know, standard generic answer). but we believe God has gifted people with the ability to lead and to teach, and we must recognize their authority when they speak God's Word to us.

or something like that

[jasJis]

This thread got entirely off-topic from what I intended. It was my intention to explore how much denominational Christians share in looking for guidance so that we could appreciate each other a little better. Most Catholics believe that all Protestants hold personal revealation above everything, but that isn't the case. Prots do look to the authority of their Denom, in a very similar (not identical) way that Caths do. We may disagree on somethings, but Prots aren't making it all up on the fly.

Back to your post.

If we look to an Authority outside our personal revelation, we do have to have some standards. Simply humilty tells us that. Just as Paul went to the other Apostles (consider the fact that Paul personally was contacted by Jesus, and given the Holy Spirit, after the Crucifixion), to discuss the matter openly, and share the wisdom of the Holy Spirit that Paul new the Apostles possessed [u]TOO[/u]. Paul knew he had the Holy Spirit, but recognized the fact so did others.

If a Denomination is rejected, you must consider what is being rejected. There cannot be non-denominationalists if you are open to the Holy Spirit that is gifted to others for their benefit and ours. It also makes you realize that the Holy Spirit given to you isn't just for your benefit, you must share it with others.

[mulls]

[quote]It was my intention to explore how much denominational Christians share in looking for guidance so that we could appreciate each other a little better.[/quote]


ok, in this sense, i'm going to make a clarification. for this argument, let's change the word "denomination" to "church," otherwise you imply that non-denominational Christians don't look for guidance.

in my Christian walk i've attended churces of two different denominations, first the Assemblies of God, now a local Brethren Assembly. i never have and never will consider myself a strictly AoG person or a strictly Bretheren person. i appreciate everyone. in this sense, i consider myself non-denominational.


[quote]Prots do look to the authority of their Denom, in a very similar (not identical) way that Caths do.  [/quote]


again, let's change "denom" to "local church," and i'm good. i know Catholics look beyond their local church because all Catholicism is the same, and i understand this.


[quote]We may disagree on somethings, but Prots aren't making it all up on the
fly.[/quote]


thank you.


[quote]There cannot be non-denominationalists if you are open to the Holy Spirit that is gifted to others for their benefit and ours.[/quote]


no...how do you arrive at this? being non-denominational doesn't mean discrediting everyone else, to me it means exactly the opposite. i am open to the Holy Spirit that is gifted to others for their benefit and mine. if i was a strict denominationalist, i would say that the Holy Spirit is only leading my denomination, and every other denom is screwed up.



[quote]It also makes you realize that the Holy Spirit given to you isn't just for your benefit, you must share it with others.[/quote]


good statement. that's a non-denominational statement, in my opinion. beautiful.

[mulls]

let me clear up my way of thinking...


"non-denominational" is more of an attitude than an identity.

a "non-denominatonal church" is one that is made up with a group of believers who don't consider one group of believers to be more right or wrong than another group....and they are all seeking and learning and growing in God, together, equally.

[mulls]

bumpington