ayed Posted May 29, 2004 Author Posted May 29, 2004 In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful Sorry for being late 1-All of prophets are infallable (Adam up , including Jesus, to Muhammad peace be upon them)were monotheists worshipped and sent by Allah to convey the following simple message: The true God is only one God .Worship Him alone and keep His commandments. 2-All of your books are entirely void of any indication of Trinity. 3-Trinity was “foisted”and adopted by St.Paul ,then approved by Constantine in 325 A.C 4-Trinity was accomplished in 381 A.C.So, it is Paul-invented creed!!I am not saying this from my own views but this is in your history.History does not lie.I do know that truth and facts always pain many people . 5-Jesus(Allah’s peace be upon him)clearly states that he is not god beside his creator(Allah): “And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me”(John 16:3) 6-Did Jesus really die?No, Jesus frankly negates this accusation : “But now I go my way to Him that sent me; and none of you asketh me”(John 16: 5) 7-Jesus clearly supplicates and glorifies his creator , Allah(The only true God).Jesus accomplished his message succefully calling for worshipping Allah only.Notice the underlined words: “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do (John 17 :3~4) 8-Jesus works according to Allah’s teachings and messages.Jesus just does obey and does what Allah has commanded him to do.Jesus says that he is sent by Allah , the Almighty , and that people believe in Allah Who sent Jesus to them: “Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me”(John 17 : 6~8) 9-In the verse(St. John 6:35), Jesus DID not say that he is God teaching among people,definitely!!Just read :” “ I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst” 10-In(John 6: 28~29),Jesus professes of all that he did(miracles)were from Allah .Jesus did miracles by Allah’s leave so that people believe in him as prophet sent by Allah: :”What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” [color=green]“And will make him ['Iesa (Jesus)] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allâh's Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allâh's Leave And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe(The Holy Quran ,3:49)[/color] 11-In the verse(St. John 16:13~14), Jesus(peace be upon him)tells us that the prophet, Muhammad(peace be upon him) will come after him and will guide people into all truth and that Muhammad will glorify Jesus as mentioned frankly in the verse: :”Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me” 12-Jesus is completely submissive to Allah’s will and was commanded by Allah: ”For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak(John :12:49) :” For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day(John 6: 38~39) 13-Jesus in frankness declares that he is just a prophet sent by Allah and that Allah is invisible :” “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Not that any man hath seen the Father (John 6: 45~46) 14-Simeon praises and supplicates Allah .Simeon calls Jesus a servant .Please re-read carefully:“Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word”(Luke 2:28~29) 15-Mary(peace be upon her) was astonished when she would conceive a child though she was not married.So, she asked the angle how would that happen.The angel answered her that would be in Allah’s leave: --Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, the holy ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee…For with God nothing shall be impossible(Luke 1:34~37) --In the Holy Quran [color=green]:”She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh [angel Jibrael (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects@She said: "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allâh) from you, if you do fear Allâh"@(The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son"@She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?"@ He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me (Allâh): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allâh), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allâh).(Surat Mary , 19 :17~21)[/color] 16-There is no any indication of God in(Luke 1:43).Lord means”master”.Read it :”And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me”. 17-Mr.Aloyisus says:”anyway, yes she worshipped her son. She took into account what the Angel had said. --I say to Mr.Aloyisus : you always try to interpret verse based on your own views.The angel DID not command Mary to worship her son.There is no any verse that supports your claim ,Mr.Aloysius.Mary asked the angel who told her that Jesus is from Allah . 18-Mr.Aloyisus says:”…she is told that her son is God by the Messenger of God, St. Gabriel ,Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.St. Luke 1:31-33. Mr.Aloysius ! Mary was told that The Lord God(Allah) shall give unto him(Jesus, the prophet)the throne . Mr.Aloysius says that :”Jesus, the Word made flesh, made everything and He made His mother. Because He made His own mother, He was able to make Her immaculate and keep her free from all sin” Mr.Aloysius !Fear Allah , your creator , Who will investigate you in the Day of Judgement of all that you have said in this worldly life.Mr.Aloysius just ask Allah to guide you to the right way .I urge all of you to think profoundly about your Creator, Allah ,your Sustainer , your Helper, your Feeder, your Superme God Who is the first and the last. 20-Mr.Aloyisus talks of Moses :”He believed that God one day would lift up another prophet like him but better, more important: “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. Deuteronomy 18 --I say that Aloyiusus’ verse above and the following one are stating the tidings of the coming prophet , Muhammad(peace be upon him)NOT Jesus : I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him(Deut 18:18). Now, thank you in advance for discussing with me this issue .Consider this topic closed.
Anna Posted May 29, 2004 Posted May 29, 2004 In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Welcome Ayed. Your questions are many. I would like to answer them, if I can find the time! I hope to provide a simple explanation for you: We Catholics are monotheists. We believe in [u][b]one God[/b][/u]. We believe the One God is three Divine Persons: Father, Son and Spirit. Not three separate divinities or gods, but One, Indivisible God. God the Father, Creator of the Universe God the Son, Redeemer of Mankind God the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost), Lord and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father and Son. We believe that God is a Triune Community: Father, Son, & Holy Ghost. Jesus did die. He was crucified, died and was buried. Then, He rose from the dead (proving His Divine nature) and ascended to the Father, where He (Jesus Christ) sits at the right hand of the Father. After Jesus ascended to the Father, God sent down His Holy Spirit, to guide the Church infallibly in matters of moral and spiritual teaching. [quote]The true God is only one God .Worship Him alone and keep His commandments[/quote] This, we also believe. [quote]All of your books are entirely void of any indication of Trinity.[/quote] All of our books point to God as being Father (Creator), Son (Redeemer) AND Holy Spirit (Lord and Giver of Life). Just because they do not use the word "Trinity," doesn't mean that God is not Three Divine Persons. Our books clearly indicate that He Is. With no disrespect intended, your book seems to point in that direction also. Why does Allah refer to Himself in the plural (We, Us)? [quote] 11-In the verse(St. John 16:13~14), Jesus(peace be upon him)tells us that the prophet, Muhammad(peace be upon him) will come after him and will guide people into all truth and that Muhammad will glorify Jesus as mentioned frankly in the verse: :”Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me” [/quote] Here, you misinterpret Our Holy Scriptures. Jesus is not referring Mohammed, but to the Holy Spirit, Whom He sent upon His Church ten days after His Ascension into heaven. The event when the Holy Spirit decended is called the Feast of Pentecost, which we still celebrate to this day. We do not believe that Mohammed is Divine, nor that Jesus was a prophet. We believe that Jesus is the Divine Son of God, who, through the power of the Holy Spirit, assumed a human nature (from the Blessed Virgin Mary) so that He might offer His own life in atonement for the sins of the world. He offered Himself upon the altar of the Cross, opening the gates of heaven which had been closed because of the sins of Adam, Eve, and their descendents. On the third day after Christ's crucifixion, He arose from the dead, as our Holy Scriptures account. Forty days later, He ascended to the Father. Ten days after that, He sent down the Holy Spirit. The salvation of mankind was accomplished through Jesus Christ long before Mohammed was ever born. St. Paul didn't make it up. Mohammed did. It appears as though Mohammed took our Sacred Scriptures and twisted them around a bit, making a god of himself, and claiming that the Son of God was merely a prophet. Our Scriptures correlate with the Jewish Torah. Jesus fulfills the Jewish law and the Jewish prophets. Jesus establishes a new and everlasting covenant between God the Father and mankind. [quote]7-Jesus clearly supplicates and glorifies his creator , Allah(The only true God).Jesus accomplished his message succefully calling for worshipping Allah only.Notice the underlined words: “These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do (John 17 :3~4) [/quote]Ayed, let us quote John 17:1~2 also. Jesus is making this supplication to the Father on the night before He is crucified. [color=red][b]...Jesus looked up to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come! Give glory to your Son that your Son may give glory to you, inasmuch as yu have given him authority over all mankind, that he may bestow eternal life on those you gave him."[/color][/b] Then follows verse 3~4. [color=red][b]"(Eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent, jesus Christ.) I have given you glory on earth by finishing the work you have sent me to do." [/b][/color] Jesus was referring to the offering of His own life upon the Cross, which was about to take place. Then, He continues: [color=red][b]Do you now, Father, give me glory at your side, a glory i had with before the world began. i have made your name known to those you gave me out of the world...."[/b][/color] He was consecrating His Apostles to the Holy Priesthood in the New Covenant He was establishing...A New Covenant desired by the Father, to reconcile mankind with Himself. You must read these things in context. Jesus is proclaiming Himself to being One with the Father. This is not the only place in Holy Scripture where Jesus prays to the Father, affirming their Oneness. [quote]12-Jesus is completely submissive to Allah’s will and was commanded by Allah: ”For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak(John :12:49) :” For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day(John 6: 38~39) [/quote] It is true that the will of Jesus Christ, true God and true man, is in perfect conformity with the will of the Father. Can any other man in history make such a claim? No. Only the One True Son of God, Jesus Christ. I'd answer some more, but I need to restart my computer. I hope this provides you with some food for thought pertaining to "our creed." Jesus doesn't have a creed, per se. We believe in Jesus. We believe Jesus is God. You are asking us, "what does God believe?" God taught us that He is God. So, I guess you could say that's what He believes! Pax Christi, friend. <><
Joseph Posted May 29, 2004 Posted May 29, 2004 [quote name='ayed' date='May 29 2004, 02:52 PM'] History does not lie.I do know that truth and facts always pain many people . [/quote] You are right. History does not lie. Maybe that's why you seem so worked up over Aloysius' post. I don't what books you looked at Ayed but the books I have read in the Bible all talk about and point to the Trinity......one God, three persons (parts).....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God bless you.
Anna Posted May 29, 2004 Posted May 29, 2004 (edited) Ayed, do you believe that Muhammad has a Divine Nature? Is he one with Allah? What is his role in your beliefs? What is Muhammad's creed? What is the scientific basis for these beliefs? Edited May 29, 2004 by Anna
Aloysius Posted May 29, 2004 Posted May 29, 2004 consider this topic closed?! you seem mighty sure of yourself there, Ayed. May we not continue discussion? May the Peace of God Almighty, Father Word and Spirit, be upon you, Ayed. first i will take every quote you have taken from our scriptures and put it in context for you. This is not my opinion on the meaning, but the intention behind the writers writing of the words. You have taken them and made them mean what you want them to mean because you cannot understand the Trinity (for no finite human creature can comprehend the infinite God) [quote]“[b]And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me[/b]”([i]John 16:3[/i])[/quote] Jesus clearly says you cannot know the Father unless you know Him, this is completely in line with Trinitarian Doctrine as it was understood by the early Church, by St. Peter, St. James, St. John, St. Paul, St. Linus, St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, St. John, and all their followers and all who believed what Jesus taught, for Jesus clearly taught that He was the Son and that know man knew God, but He was the Son of God and thus He knew and had seen God. [i]St. Matthew 11:27[/i][b]All things are delivered to me by my Father. And no one knoweth the Son but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him.[/b]\ [quote][b]“But now I go my way to Him that sent me; and none of you asketh me”([[/b]I]John 16: 5)[/I] [/quote] Read the Context and you will see, He speaks of going away to Heaven which He did through His death, ressurection, and assension. There are many instances where He predicts His death, and this instance does not deny His coming death. He clearly says that Him that sent Him was the Father in Heaven in [i]John 6[/i] The very book you quote says specifically that the writer WITNESSED the death of JESUS, and Jesus clearly says in the same book that He will SUFFER and DIE. At the Last Supper He said His blood would be shed for many [b]"26 And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread and blessed and broke and gave to his disciples and said: Take ye and eat. This is my body. 27 And taking the chalice, he gave thanks and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. 28 For this is [color=red]my blood [/color]of the new testament, which [color=red]shall be shed for many [/color]unto remission of sins. "[/b] [i]St. Matthew 26:26-28[/i] [b]"And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke and gave to them and said: Take ye. This is my body. 23 And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them: This is [color=red]my blood [/color]of the new testament, [color=red]which shall be shed for many." [/color][/b] [i]St. Mark 14:22-24[/i] [b]And taking bread, he gave thanks and brake and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. 20 In like manner, the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in [color=red]my blood, which shall be shed for you[/color]."[/b] [i]St. Luke 22:19-20[/i] [b]"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself. 33 (Now this he said, signifying what death he should die.) "[/b] St. John 12:32-33 [quote]“These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do (John 17 :3~4)[/quote] He doesn't seperate Himself from the phrase "The only True God" but rather continues to elaborate on how they must know and understand God to find life eternal: they must know the only True God: the Father, the only True God, His Word Jesus whom He has sent. Anyway, let's see the context [b]3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, [u]with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.[/u] [/b][i]St. John 17:3-5[/i] He clearly now mentions the fact that He was with the Father in heaven before this earthly life. He clearly mentions He had this glory before the created world! This is an affirmation of His divinity, and clear explanation that He had humbled Himself to the form of Man, now He says that the Father will glorify Him back to that same Glory which He had in Heaven with the Father as the One Undivided Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. Can you explain to me why He said "[b]the glory which I had, before the world was, with Thee[/b]"? [quote][b]“Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me”([/b][i]John 17 : 6~8)[/i] [/quote] in this Jesus clearly elaborates on the doctrine this Gospel of St. John starts off with: that JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD. All that Jesus speaks is the same as God Himself speaking. [quote][b]“ I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst” [/b][i]St. John 6:35[/i][/quote] I said He had said that He was God teaching amoung the people when He quoted "they shall all be taught by God" but in this statement: JESUS CALLS HIMSELF INFINITE. No mere Creature is INFINITE, that is an attribute of God Almighty. That believing in Him will fill their thirst, that coming to him will fill their hunger. Only God Almighty can provide for all creation like that unexhastably. [quote][b]:”What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent”[/b][i]St. John 6:28-29[/i][/quote] The work of God is to believe in Jesus Christ, this means that to believe in God is to believe in Jesus, and to believe in Jesus is to believe in God. In the context of the Bible Jesus has clearly established Himself as God, and in this verse He is also calling Himself God. You do not see because you impose the meanings you want it to mean upon these words. [quote][b]”Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me” [/b][i] St. John 16:13-14[/i][/quote] Jesus speaks of the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of God, being poured out upon the people. This does not prophesy anything about a person of flesh and blood, but only the SPIRIT. [quote][b]”For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak[/b](John :12:49) [b]:” For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day[/b](John 6: 38~39) [/quote] Again, in the context of this book, John says that Jesus is the WORD OF GOD, and thus all words that come from His Mouth are the WORDS of GOD ALMIGHTY. When He speaks: God is speaking! He "came down from Heaven" he thus has seen and Heard the Father, He does the Father's will, which is the Will of His Divinity while the humanity He took on may or may not have a different will at some points (but He did not come to do that will!) [quote] [b]“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Not that any man hath seen the Father[/b] [i](John 6: 45~46)[/i] [/quote] this certainly perplexes me. Jesus says "They shall all be taught by God" and He says "Not that any man hath seen the Father" and THEN he says "except Him who is of the Father" He here affirms His own divinity, saying no man has seen the Father, but He has seen the Father and He came from the Father! [quote]“[b]Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word”([[/b]I]Luke 2:28~29[/I])[/quote] oi ve! Who told you this, because i cannot accept that you read the scripture yourself and came to that conclusion! unless you only read that one line! [b]25 And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon: and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel. And the Holy Ghost was in him. 26 And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, [u]that he should not see death before he had seen the Christ of the Lord.[/u] 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, 28 He also took him into his arms and blessed God and said 29[u] Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace: 30 Because my eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples: 32 A light to the revelation of the Gentiles and the glory of thy people Israel. [/u][/b] Simon called Himself a servant of the Lord, He called Jesus THE SALVATION of the Lord. He is saying "[b]now I, the servant of the Lord, can die, because I have seen the salvation of the Lord[/b]" He calls Jesus the Light of revelation to the gentiles and the glory of Israel, and He seems even to be adressing His adressal of "O Lord" to the child! He says to a mere baby "now dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace" he recognizes God in his arms. [quote]How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, the holy ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee…For with God nothing shall be impossible(Luke 1:34~37)[/quote] yep, she was astonished: she had taken a vow of perpetual virginity, a vow to not know man. [quote]16-There is no any indication of God in(Luke 1:43).Lord means”master”.Read it :”And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me”.[/quote] Lord is also the word they used to mean "God" because they would not say "God" or "YHWH" out of respect to the name, they said simply "Lord" There is absolutely no social reason why Jesus would've been Elizabeth's lord. The only reason a hebrew woman would call someone her 'lord' was if he was her husband or possibly her father. Jesus was a baby in the womb, def. not Elizabeth's husband or father. Elizabeth called this baby the Lord God, there is no other explanation for why she would call him 'lord' [quote]“[b]The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.[/b][i] Deuteronomy 18[/i][/quote] [quote][b]I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him[/b][i](Deut 18:18[/i]).[/quote] it is but your opinion that this referred to Mohammad, but Jesus clearly considered Himself the fulfillment of this prophecy. Consider especially the second verse there, "and will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him" and then consider all the verses we have talked about here where Jesus says He speaks what He hears from His Father. Jesus clearly considers Himself the fulfillment of this prophecy, and you say all prophets are infallible from Adam to Mohammad including Jesus, so if Jesus says He is the prophet spoken of by Moses, how can you say it's not Jesus but Mohammad? Pax Iesus Christum ~Aloysius
geetarplayer Posted May 30, 2004 Posted May 30, 2004 Ayed, peace be with you. It is good to hear from you again. How is your family doing? I cannot ask you this in private, because for some reason I can't send you a private message. Jesus specifically spoke of the Trinity when he said, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20) In the Gospel of John, Chapter 8, Verse 28, Jesus tells us of His divine nature, saying, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me," and again in Verse 58, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM." Using the phrase "I AM" shows us that Jesus is referring to Himself as God, because the Jews understood that "I AM" was God's identity. -Mark
ayed Posted May 31, 2004 Author Posted May 31, 2004 (edited) In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful [color=green]My simple order is “Read it carefully”[/color] I thank and praise Allah Who guided me to debate with you some issues on this Forum.I hope everyone is right and in good mood. It seems to me that discussions should not spoil our relations at any rate.We are poor human beings subject to make mistakes and live in this worldly life until everyone face his/her predestined fate--death. I wished our topic be closed but its consequences forced us to continue for some time and the occasion of Mr.Geetarplayer’s return did as well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joseph : My source is “Story of Civilization” and Encyclopaeda Britannica 2003. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anna !Thank you for your questions .I have numbered them so as to be easy to follow up: 1-The prophet, Muhammad(Allah’s peace be upon him)HAS NOT divine nature at all.He was a human being chosen by Allah to be the seal of prophets. In the Holy Quran , Allah , the Exalted commands Muhammad to address people telling them about himself : “Say (O Muhammad SAW): "I am only a man like you It has been inspired to me that your Ilâh (God) is One Ilâh (God ie Allâh) So whoever hopes for the Meeting with his Lord, let him work righteousness and associate none as a partner in the worship of his Lord"(Surat Al-Quhf”The Cave”18:110) Say (O Muhammad SAW): "It is revealed to me that your Ilâh (God) is only one Ilâh (God - Allâh) Will you then submit to His Will (become Muslims and stop worshipping others besides Allâh)?"(Surat Al-Anbia’ “The prophets” 21:108) It is just revelation no less no more.Allah sends the Archangel”Gabriel”(peace be upon him)carrying the divine verses and bounty teachings to Muhammad(peace be upon him). Accordingly,Muhammad teaches his people to worship Allah only and to obey him. 2-No, Muhammad IS NOT one with Allah, the Creator. Muhmmad is a human being like us , Jesus , Moses ,Suliman”Solomon”…etc. He was a chosen and sent by Allah to “Al-Alamin”(the mankind+jinns) Allah , the Almighty ,tells us about Muhammad in the Holy Quran: “Muhammad(SAW)is no more than a Messenger, and indeed (many) Messengers have passed away before him If he dies or is killed, will you then turn back on your heels (as disbelievers)?And he who turns back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allâh, and Allâh will give reward to those who are grateful”(Surat Al-Umran 3:144) :”Muhammad (SAW) is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allâh and the last (end) of the Prophets And Allâh is Ever AllAware of everything”(33:40) :”But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad (SAW), for it is the truth from their Lord, He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state( 47:2) 3-Muhammad’s role in our beliefs at least can be summed up in the following Hadith when Gabrile came to Muhammad in a shape of man of commoners but when read our creed and beliefs , you will discover many things : :”One day Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) appeared before the public. Then a man came to him and asked: Prophet of Allah, what is Iman? Upon this he (the Holy Prophet) replied: That you affirm your faith in Allah, His angels, His Books, His meeting, His Messengers and that you affirm your faith in the Resurrection hereafter. He (again) asked: Messenger of Allah, what does Islam signify? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Islam signifies that you worship Allah and do not associate anything with Him and you perform the prescribed Prayer and you pay the obligatory poor-due (Zakah) and you observe the Fast of Ramadan. He (the inquirer) again asked: Messenger of Allah, what does Al-Ihsan (Faithfulness) imply? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: That you worship Allah as if you are seeing Him, and in case you fail to see Him, then observe that He is seeing you. He (the inquirer) again asked: Messenger of Allah, when would there be the Hour of (Doom)? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: The one who is asked about it is no better informed than the inquirer. I, however, will narrate some of its signs (and these are): When the female-slave will give birth to her master, when the naked, barefooted would become the chiefs of the people; these are some of the signs of (Doom). (Moreover) when the shepherds of the black (camels) would exalt themselves in buildings, this is one of the signs of (Doom). (Doom) is one of the five (happenings wrapped in the unseen) which no one knows but Allah. Then he (the Messenger of Allah) (may peace be upon him) recited (the verse): :”Verily, Allâh! With Him (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs No person knows what he will earn tomorrow, and no person knows in what land he will die Verily, Allâh is AllKnower, AllAware (of things) “. He (the narrator, Abu Hurairah) said: Then the person turned back and went away. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Bring that man back to me. They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet present there) went to bring him back, but they did not find him. Upon this Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) remarked: He was Gabriel. He came to teach people their religion. [url="http://hadith.al-islam.com/Bayan/default.asp"]http://hadith.al-islam.com/Bayan/default.asp[/url] 4-Muhammad's creed is what he taught us to do.You can visit the following link to read more about it : [url="http://www.al-islam.com/"]http://www.al-islam.com/[/url] I did not know what you mean in your question No.5. You may find its answer in the following websites: [url="http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&dgn=3"]http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&dgn=3[/url] [url="http://www.islam.ws/"]http://www.islam.ws/[/url] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome back, Mr.Geetraplayer . #Mr.Geetarplayer says that Jesus is a god when he said”I am he” in the verse( John 8:28~29). ---Let us read the verse and see what it means :” “Then said Jesus unto them,when ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. ---It is axomatic that Jesus tells his people around him that he is(Jesus)a prophet inspired and supported by revelation from Allah .When they lifted up(draw Jesus’ attention to the accused woman)they knew Jesus did not Judge by himself but with what came down from Allah to him through revelation brought by Gabriel.So,you know when people asked Jesus to apply Moses’ law on the woman accused of adultry , Jesus did not instantly command them to stone that woman ,adultress.However, Jesus waited until revelation came down from Allah.Again,”I am he”means I am he who judges not by himself alone but by the support of Allah“And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him” --Why was Jesus’ judgement is true?Because Allah provides him with revelation and power.Read it :”And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me(John 8:16, KJV) --Jesus always receives revelation through Gabriel from Allah .Jesus hears things through revelation from Gabriel and teaches his people .Read it: I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him( John 8:26 , KJV) --------------------------------------------------------- Mr.Aloyisus , let us forget about the glad tidings of Muhammad so as to stick to the main topic and avoid irrelevant digressions, agreed?Well, let us go to our topic. Mr.Aloyisus , what do you think of the following verses ? : -“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”( John 17:3 , KJV) --The eternal life(Paradies)is achieved by knowing Allah is the only true God and Jesus is a prophet from Him .Jesus calls for “Monotheism”not “Polytheism”. 2-And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father”(Luke 26:39 , KJV) --What does “fell on his face”means other than “wroshipping his creator, Allah?Jesus prays , supplicates and invokes Allah.Thus, Jesus himself affirms that he is a slave worships the Maker, Allah. 3-“He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father”(Luke 26:42 , KJV) --The same can be applied on this verse. 4-And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words(Luke 26:44 , KJV) --The same thing can be applied on this verse. 5-“And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed”(Mark 1:35 , KJV) --Jesus woke up at dawn and isolated himself from his people to supplicate Allah and pray.Jesus is a monotheist , worshipping his God, Allah no less no more. 6-And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done”…”And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground@And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow(Luke 22: 41~45 , KJV) --Jesus “kneeled down…and prayed more earnestly until his sweat fell down as drops of blood”.What does this mean other than “worshipping his Lord , Allah, the Exalted??? 1-Could you please,Mr.Aloyisus, back up your following cliams: :”yep, Jesus, the Word made flesh, made everything and He made His mother. Because He made His own mother, He was able to make Her immaculate and keep her free from all sin. 2-Can you just prove by only a verse that Jesus called for worshipping him? --I beg your pardon if I made mistakes in my writings. Thank you in advance. Accept my regards. Ayed Edited May 31, 2004 by ayed
Aloysius Posted May 31, 2004 Posted May 31, 2004 Ayed, answer me this 3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, [b]with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee[/b]. [i]St. John 17:3-5[/i] Why does Jesus claim to have had glory before the world was with the Father. Why does he say at another time: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM [i]St. John 8:58[/i] And why does the begining of the Gospel of John say: In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and [b]the Word was God[/b]. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. In him was life: and the life was the light of men. ...He was in the world: and the world was made by him: and the world knew him not. He came unto his own: and his own received him not. But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And [b]the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father)[/b], full of grace and truth. [i]St John 1:-4; 10-14[/i] We are monotheists, Ayed. But in the infinity of God, INFINITE MAJESTY AND GLORY, can you tell me it is impossible for God to live in a community within Himself, in His INFINITE and ETERNAL existence, He can have 3 persons to One God, three co-equal co-eternal persons who are all but the One Infinite God, yet distinct of themselves. Do not tell me it is impossible because human logic cannot understand it, because we speak here of God Almighty, whom no human being can fully comprehend. Can One Infinite and ALL-POWERFUL God exist in Three Persons who are distinct yet undividable and fully One? Can one of those persons who is distinct yet equal and one with God, through the Infinite Almighty Power of God, become both God and Man at the same time? Can He worship God as a man, while Himself being God? If not, why? Is God not all-powerful, can He not do anything. Is this simply impossible because you cannot understand with human logic how it could be? When you stop thinking as human beings do and begin to think as God does, then you will know. I pray you stop relying on your human logic and find Truth in the One True God who is found in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all undivided, the Father whom we both worship who loves every one of us PERSONALLY, the Son Jesus Christ who is the Word who was in the begining with God, who in the begining was God, who was made flesh, who had glory before the world began which the Father gave back to Him after His death and Ressurection, and the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of God and thus God Himself. May the Peace of Jesus Christ, the Love of God the Father, and the Power of the Holy Spirit be present in our discussions, and come to break through mere human understanding lifting our conversation up to a higher standard, a transcendent knowledge of God Almighty.
ayed Posted May 31, 2004 Author Posted May 31, 2004 Thank you Mr.Aloyisus for you response.I hope everyone of you has read my answers and explanations.I also thank our readers who click on our topic. I just ask you to give me more time to download more books of yours so as to organize myself and be able to answer your questions carefully.Moreover, as you know my language sometimes lets me down .Anyway, I will read your comments and questions.Just be patient to me. Ayed's regards
Carson Weber Posted June 1, 2004 Posted June 1, 2004 Ayed, I encourage you to read [u]The Challenge of Jesus[/u] by N.T. Wright. God bless you.
ayed Posted June 3, 2004 Author Posted June 3, 2004 (edited) In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful #################################################### [color=red]Please read it thoroughly before any comments or correction [/color] ################################################### I have numbered your questions, Mr.Aloyisus, so as to followed it up easily : ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The first question has two parts: --”Why does Jesus claim to have had glory before the world was with the Father? --Why does he say at another time:Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM St. John 8:58 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My answer is that all of prophets are infallable .Since Jesus is a prophet , then he is infallable .Far it be from Jesus to lie on us.Someone of you may ask:”How did Jesus have had this glory?The axiomatic answer is simply evident in that glory that Jesus has had is from Allah .Another one may ask:”How did you know, Mr.Ayed, that Jesus’s glory from Allah?Jesus himself will answer: “I honour my Father And I seek not mine own “glory”: there is one that seeketh and judgeth”.We can also read this:“Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God” In the two verses mentioned above, you can notice the following things: --Jesus confirms that glory he has had is from Allah . --Self-glorification is sensless unless it is from Allah, the Exalted. --Allah honors Jesus. @The second part of Mr.Aloyisus’question :”before Ibrahim came to be , I am” My answer is :the phrase above means that Allah, the Almighy, the Exalted has “predetermined and chosen Jesus”.Jews nagged at Jesus .Thus, he told them he was determined beforehand by Allah in order to confirm that he is a sent chosen prophet by Allah .Jesus’ speech is not from his own but from Allah came down through “revelation” via the angel,Gabriel.As Jesus states: “the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me” ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The second question :Mr.Aloyisus asks:” …In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth. St John 1:-4; 10-14 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My answer is :Remember that Jesus is “infallable” and does not lie(Far it be from him to do so).Well, read the following to see what does it mean: --”in the beginning was the word” .Since Jesus is the word of Allah then read the verse again after Substitution Test: --“in the beginning of Jesus’ creation “.means that Allah has”preordained and chosen Jesus”.Since Jesus is of a beginning , then he must have had an end.Thus, this negates the claim that Jesus is”eternal”. --“the word was with God”.It means Allah’s command.That is, when Allah wants to make something , He says ”Be! Then it is”.The “word” is but”a command” came down via Gabriel to Mary who conceived Jesus. “And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth”(Luke 1:26 , KJV) --“the Word was made flesh”.Linguistically discussing, this phrase is in “passive voice”.So, it must have had an agent”the doer”.Well, who made the word flesh?Did it do that by itself?Who is the agent”the doer”?Let us see when we render this phrase to “active voice”: @Passive voice: A-The Word was made flesh” B-The Word was made flesh by …” C-Jesus was made flesh by Allah D-Jesus was made flesh by Jesus. @Active voice: 1-”…made the Word flesh” 2-“…made Jesus flesh. 3-The Word made the Word flesh. 4-Jesus made the Word flesh. 5-Jesus made Jesus flesh. 6-Allah made the Word flesh. 7-Allah made Jesus flesh. Of your own volition , I let you choose from”the active & passive voices”the correct answer that fits into “the ellipsis”. @As for the rest of the phrase”and dwelt among us”.Yes, Jesus was born and lived among his people , among his disciples , with his closer followers and with his people. @(and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father). --First, Jesus is infallable andIf Jesus says that he is begotten in any verse,then back up your statement. --Second, you have to doubt in any bracketed expressions in any speech. Since your books have undergone insertions and changes ,then one has to doubt the above phrase in the question.Of these insertions are the following two examples : A-“This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true(John 21:24, KJV).The underlined phrase is interpolated by copyists. B-“But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe(John 19: 34~35 ,KJV).The underlined phrase is inserted by the copist to notify readers of John’s trueness. So, this bracketed words in Mr.Aloyisus’ question under discussion are suspicious in that it is inserted by copyists so as to harmonize with what you claim”Jesus is begotten”No less no more. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The third question of Mr.Aloyisus’ says:it is impossible for God to live in a community within Himself, in His INFINITE and ETERNAL existence, He can have 3 persons to One God, three co-equal co-eternal persons who are all but the One Infinite God, yet distinct of themselves. Do not tell me it is impossible because human logic cannot understand it, because we speak here of God Almighty, whom no human being can fully comprehend. Can One Infinite and ALL-POWERFUL God exist in Three Persons who are distinct yet undividable and fully One? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr.Aloyisus!Focus on this issue carefully. @Axiomatically,Allah is infinite and eternal .When you say that Allah is infinite , then you are , at the same time, entirely negating infinteness and uneternality.However, according to your creed , you claim that Jesus is a God lived with his disciples .Accordingly, how can you say that God is infinite and finite at the same time? @All-powerful : since Jesus(based on your own creed)was crucified ,then crucifiction negates all-powerfulness away from Jesus and affirm Jesus’ weakness as well.. --Does Allah says “we are All-power three in one or one in three”? @”Undiviable” is negated by Jesus’ death(according to your own creed).If Jesus died , then “The Father and the holy spirit” would have had died based on the ”Undivibaleness”. --Does Allah says “we are undiviable three”?Does Allah say that He is three in one?Does He say He is consisting of three distinct persons?Does Allah or Jesus say that “we are three in one and one in three”?Definitely , nothing at all! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The fourth question of Aloyisus’ says :”Can one of those persons who is distinct yet equal and one with God, through the Infinite Almighty Power of God, become both God and Man at the same time? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @My answer is that they are not equal to each other at all since Allah is infinte while Jesus is finite.Moreover, Jesus is infallable who disonws your claim”equality”.Let us read what Jesus states about himself: ”The Father(Allah)is greater than I “.There is no equality you calim.Shall you believe Jesus or believe human beings?It is up to you. @”become both God and Man at the same time”This means that Allah becomes infinite and finite at the same time which is degrading Allah’s Estimate and His Sublimity .Read : --“I am the first and I am the last;besides Me there is NO GOD.who is like me?(Isaia 44:6, KJV). --“Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any”(Isaia 44:8, KJV) --“Had there been therein (in the heavens and the earth) gods besides Allâh, then verily both would have been ruined Glorified be Allâh, the Lord of the Throne, (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!”The Holy Quran( 21:22) --“The Creator of the heavens and the earth He has made for you mates from yourselves, and for the cattle (also) mates By this means He creates you (in the wombs) There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer”The Holy Quran(42:11) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The fifth question of Aloyisus’ says: Can He worship God as a man, while Himself being God?If not, why? Is God not all-powerful, can He not do anything. Is this simply impossible because you cannot understand with human logic how it could be? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My answer is this: Before I answer your question , let us read the definition of”worship”what it means:Worship:”reverent honor and homage paid to God”.This definition clearly excludes “man” .(Webster‘s Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, 1983).Allah is worshipped by His creature .Allah does not worship His creatures. In the Holy Quran , Allah says“O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh) created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth And Allâh is AllSufficient as a Disposer of affairs( Surat Al-Nisa’ “the women” 4:171) All the praises and thanks be to Allâh, Who has sent down to His slave (Muhammad SAW) the Book (the Qur'ân), and has not placed therein any crookedness@(He has made it) Straight to give warning (to the disbelievers) of a severe punishment from Him, and to give glad tidings to the believers (in the Oneness of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism), who work righteous deeds, that they shall have a fair reward (ie Paradise)@ They shall abide therein forever@And to warn those (Jews, Christians, and pagans) who say, "Allâh has begotten a son (or offspring or children)"@ No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers Mighty is the word that comes out of their mouths [ie He begot (took) sons and daughters] They utter nothing but a lie(Surat Al-Kuhf”The Cave” 18:1~5) The Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [ie she believed in the words of Allâh and His Books ] They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allâh does not eat) Look how We make the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth)(Surat Al-Ma’dah 5:75) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope that , at least, I answered your questions . --I beg your pardon if I made mistakes in my writings or interpretations. --I will stop writing for some weeks because my son , at present,is having final exams and he is in need of me to revise with him his books.Till another useful topic, please keep our Phatmass Forum at a higher level of nobilty and love.Will you excuse me?Yes, I am sure of that. Thank you in advance. With my best wishes Anyone who has any question or explanation can contact me at E-mail sahite2004@hotmail.com Ayed [url="http://www.islam-guide.com/"]http://www.islam-guide.com/[/url] Edited June 3, 2004 by ayed
Winchester Posted June 7, 2004 Posted June 7, 2004 Ayed, Believe you'll remember me. My last comments to you were quite combative and insolent. I also thought they flowed rather well. Quotes from the Quran mean little, for as you believe Jesus to be merely a prophet, I believe Muhammed to have been merely a man, albeit a good military leader who was able by violence to conquer many peoples. Also, a good leader in death, to be able to marshal a devoted religious following from beyond the grave. Jesus wrote no surmised creed. The fact of Catholic faith answers your questions: the steward of Christ's kingdom saw to it that a creed surmising Catholic belief was written, and we believe our steward incapable of teaching theological error. The Bible does not contain all our faith explicitly, nor are its writings the limit of our faith. We have Tradition as well as Scripture, so proofs cannot be limited to the Bible only, and to deman such is to sever our religion. It's simply not a valid request, and I urge all Catholics to repeat that over and over to anyone demanding that until it sinks in to the requestor's head, the head in question explodes, they simply go away, or preferably, shut up and actually listen.
phatcatholic Posted June 7, 2004 Posted June 7, 2004 ayed, in my time here i have noticed that most, if not all, of your questions result from a misunderstanding of what the Trinity truly is. this is okay, afterall christians have trouble comprehending the trinity as well. however, we do hold certain things as true about the trinity, rather we understand them or not. at any rate, if you go [url="http://answering-islam.org/Trinity/index.html"][b]here[/b][/url] you will find an index of articles written specifically for muslims to help them understand the Trinity better. many of them are even written by former muslims, who have since converted to christianity. i hope this helps........pax christi (latin for "peace of Christ"), phatcatholic
yiannii Posted June 7, 2004 Posted June 7, 2004 What we have to remember is that God is also unknowable to us in our present forms, so we can't expect to fully understand the Trinity. In a sense God has translated himself into something which our earthly minds can comprehend.
ayed Posted June 11, 2004 Author Posted June 11, 2004 In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful Thank you Mr.Catholic , Yianni and the rest. I hope that you have read this topic carefully. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr.Winchester!I think that you have misunderstood me when I say that Jesus(peace be upon him)is a mere prophet. It is his own nature no less no more.Jesus has repeatedly stated many times that he is a son of man so as not be worshipped by people after him as what has happened so far.Jesus is a part of our creed and all of muslims in the world really respect him .If anyone denies Jesus , he will be”kafer”--infidel.Thus, the denier will be in the Hell.The prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him)believed in Jesus as a chosen prophet from Allah Who sent Jesus to sons of Israel only NOT to all people.Muhammad called all nations to believe in Jesus .So, I hope that you understand this point. Muhammad was commanded by Allah to spread the message of Islam not by violence as you have accused him of these groundless feeble charges.Unless you prove what you have said, then you are the accused not Muhammad.No blame to you , Mr.Winchseter , so long as you have often read tens of hundreds of books and watch movies that distort Islam.At your school , such erranous information are delivered to students if I am not mistaken. My writing is clear and I do not accuse Jesus of writing surmised creed at all .I say that Jesus did not , does not and will not call himself a God as mentioned in your books and in the Holy Quran .Jesus neither commanded his disciples nor people around nor you to worship him.May you remember , Mr.Winchester , when Satan asked Jesus to worship(Satan). Read this : ”If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine@And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve(Luke 4:7-8 , KJV) Did Jesus obeyed Satan?Definitely, not.Jesus told Satan that it is written on(Jesus)to worship only Allah. Jesus explicitly called for worshipping only Allah many times as I cited in my topic and you remember when Jesus warned Satan in the verse(Luke 4:7-8 , KJV). Mr.Winchester!If proofs cannot be limited to the Bible only, then will you ascrib them to a mere man--Paul?History does not lie , unless you intentionally blink facts and truth. Find the word”God” through the Old and New Testaments and see what Allah calls Himself.Does He says: --We are three”or “I am three in one”or” I have a son whose name is Jesus”or”We are three Gods in one”?Find just one and tell me! Mr.Winchester!Your claims are completely groundless and invalid, unless you back up them!I just wonder, what would you do if someone accuses you of stealing his money!You will ask him to prove the charge against you, will you? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr.Aloyisus , again , could you prove the following : 1-that Jesus , the Word made flesh, made everything and He made His mother. Because He made His own mother, He was able to make Her immaculate and keep her free from all sin? 2- that Jesus called for worshipping him? Thank you in advance. With my best wishes sahite2004@hotmail.com
yiannii Posted June 12, 2004 Posted June 12, 2004 The doctrine of the Trinity was unknown during Old Testament times; thus explaining why the clearest Scriptual evidence proving the Trinity is found in the New Testament. All this said there is a number of Old Testament verses where the Trinity is presented as a mystery but later becomes apparent in the light of Christ's revelation. An example of this is the use of the word "us" in the following verses, thus implying plurality of Persons. [quote]“Then God said: [b]Let us[/b] make man in our image, after our likeness...So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him...” (Gen. 1, 26-27) Then the Lord God said, See, the man has become like [b]one of us[/b], knowing good and evil...” (Gen. 3, 22) “Come, [b]let us[/b] go down, and confuse their language there...” (Gen. 11, 7).[/quote] This plurality of Persons in God was made evident at the very beginning of Christianity, when the Angel Gabriel appeared to the Virgin Mary at the Annunciation: [quote]“And the angel said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God” (St. Luke 1, 30-32 & 35).[/quote] The beginning of Christ's public ministry provided another reference of the Trinity: [quote]“And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased” (St. Mark 1, 10-11)[/quote] The New Testament provides the specific names of the Trinity of Persons in God in Christs great commission to His disciples at the end of St Matthew's Gospel: [quote]“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age” (St. Matt. 28, 19-20)[/quote] See in this verse the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned distinctly, but under the singular term "name" rather than "names." They are therefore distinctive Persons but not seperate beings or gods. The very fact that the three Persons are grouped together under one name implies their equality. St John. also alludes to the three persons of the Trinity in the following verse: [quote]“And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. And these three are one” (1 John 5, 7) [/quote] There are many other passages in Scripture that provide evidence of Christ's divinity: [quote]“Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, His name shall be called Emmanuel (i.e., God with us)” (Is. 7, 14); “…a child has been born for us, a son given to us; authority rests upon his shoulders; and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Is. 9, 6); “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us” (St. John 1, 1-14); “Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am” (St. John 8, 58).[/quote] Christians have always understood Christ's use of "I am" as a claim to divinity, identifying Himself with the God of Moses: "I am who am." The implication is obvious. [quote]“The Father and I are one” (St. John 10, 30). “My Lord and my God” (St. John 20, 28). [/quote] St. Paul also writes of Christ’s divinity: [quote]“...to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever” (Rom. 9, 5); “Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited” (Phil. 2, 5-6); “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Col. 2, 9); “But of the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom” (Heb. 1, 8). [/quote] Christ constantly applied to Himself the supreme title of "Son of God," and accepted it from His followers without question: [quote](St. Peter says) “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God” (St. Matt. 16, 16); (The High Priest says) “I put you under oath before the living God, tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God. Jesus said to him, You have said so” (St. Matt. 26, 63-64); (St. John the Baptist says) “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!...And I myself have seen and have testified that this is the Son of God” (St. John 1, 29-34); (The Blind Man says) “...Dost thou believe in the Son of God? He answered, and said: Who is he, Lord, that I may believe in him? And Jesus said to him: Thou hast both seen him; and it is he who talketh with thee. And He said: I believe, Lord. And falling down, he adored Him” (St. John 9, 35- 38); (St. Martha says) “Yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one coming into the world” (St. John 11, 27). [/quote] Christ claimed to be the real and literal Son of God, a claim understood but rejected by his enemies: [quote]“…because you, being a man, make yourself God” (St. John 10, 31-33); “Then the high priest tore his robes, and said, ‘He has uttered blasphemy. Why do we still need witnesses? You have now heard his blasphemy. What is your judgment?’ They answered, ‘He deserves death’” (St. Matt. 26, 65- 66).[/quote] Not only did Christ take the title of Son of God, but He also assumed all the functions, acts, and the necessary and supreme attributes of God: [quote]“The Father loves the Son and has placed all things in his hands” (St. John 3, 35); “...whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise” (St. John 5, 19); “If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father” (St. John 10, 37-38); “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me” (St. John 14, 1); “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him. Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied. Jesus said to him, Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father...Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?” (St. John 14, 6-10); “...I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If in my name you ask me for anything, I will do it” (St. John 14, 13-14); “All that the Father has is mine” (St. John 16, 15). [/quote] Christ claimed to be the supreme judge: [quote]“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats” (St. Matt. 25, 31-32). [/quote] Only God can have the knowledge of all hearts and minds. Christ claimed authority over the Sabbath: [quote]“For the Son of man is lord of the sabbath” (St. Matt. 12, 8). [/quote] Only God can change his own laws. As God, He forgave sins: [quote]“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...Stand up, take your bed and go to your home” (St. Matt. 9, 6). [/quote] Christ also declared that He would rise again by His own power: [quote]“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up” (St. John 2, 19); “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again” (St. John 10, 18). [/quote]
yiannii Posted June 13, 2004 Posted June 13, 2004 The following table sheds more light on the divine attributes of Christ: Yahweh was called “the God of glory” (Ps. 29 [28], 3) the resurrected Christ is “Lord of glory” (1 Cor. 2, 8) God is Lord of Lords (Deut. 10, 17) Christ is Lord of Lords (Rev.17, 14) God is the only savior (Is. 43, 11) Christ is savior (St. Luke 2, 11) God is the source of living water (Jer. 17, 13) Christ is the source of living water (St. John 4, 14) The Lord’s thoughts cannot be directed (Is. 40, 13) so to, no one can instruct the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2, 16) The Lord God owns earth and all its fullness (Ps. 24 [23], 1) likewise does the Lord Jesus (1 Cor. 10, 26) God never changes (Ps. 102 [101], 26-27) Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb. 13, 8) God is the light (Ps. 27 [26], 1) Christ is the light of the world (St. John 8, 12) God is the searcher of hearts and minds (Jer. 17, 10) Christ is He who searches mind and heart (Rev. 2, 23) God will come with all the holy ones (Zech. 14, 5) Christ will come with all the saints (1 Thes. 3, 13) [i]Thanks to Lumen Verum for providing me with this table.[/i]
Winchester Posted June 13, 2004 Posted June 13, 2004 Ayed, We beleive that denying Christ's deity, one denies Him, so we have to disagree here. "The Father and I are one"
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