Open/closed Brethern

[dUSt]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2004, 05:28 PM'] hmm, then why so much emphasis in the Church on the early church fathers? [/quote]
I think there's equal emphasis on all of the theologians of the Church throughout all generations. St Justin Martyr, St Francis, St Aquinas, Newman, etc... We must always look at the Church as a whole.

[PedroX]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already, but I believe that the Brethern groups are the spiritual descendants of Menlo Simons, the same as the Mennonites and Amish. Just a bit of doctrinal trivia (trivia is all I can manage today!)

peace...

[Crusader_4]

I am not positive at that although i know my brethern friends are very very mennonite in nature almost to the point of being completlye mennonite except without pacifism. Also in the Catholic Church we need to spend some time with the Early Church and focus because that is the roots of our faith it grounds the tree in which we are. From those roots the tree has grown into a beautiful one with many flowers such as Mother Teresea to St. Francis and many strong branches like Aquinas and Augustine. Yet the tree is still on the foundation and growing off the land called Christ. And the Trunk of this tree that digs straight into the ground is the Papacy.

[Ellenita]

Crusader, that's a really beautiful picture of the Catholic church - thanks!

[crusader1234]

lol yeah and the seeds are missionaries and the weeds are protestants hahahaha (crusader_4 is sitting next to me and cant believe im about to type this... im in a weird mood and think his metaphor is funny). Round-up is the devil. hahahahaha (just kidding)

[Ellenita]

Tsk, tsk Crusader1234!

We British are not given to expressing our emotions easily...it took me hours to work up the courage to tell Crusader_4 that I was moved by his metaphor....

[crusader1234]

oh, no ellenita its a very nice metaphor and had it been anyone else (that i dont actually know) i would take it to heart too. its just that i know william and its funny to hear from him. good job though will

[Katholikos]

QUOTE
American descendants of early German Protestants, the Bretheren are authentic Pietists. The inner spiritual life, piety, is cultivated in prayer and study of Scripture and through association with fellow believers. The local church is central. In it members are true brothers and sisters. The church claims their primary loyalty in a world that offers many societies for association. It is understood more as a community of people who love God and one another than as part of an organization or a body that formulates doctrine. Brethren do not emphasize tight doctrinal standards, rather, the spirit of God within each one, binding one another in love, takes precedence for them.

They live a simple, unadorned life. In their early decades in Europe and America, Brethren were separatists from the state and conventional churches. While not manifesting a judgmental attitude, they devote themselves to a purity that may set them apart from other Christians, as well as from general society.

From these German Pietists came Church of the Brethern (Conservative Dunkers), Brethren Church (Progressive Dunkers), Old German Baptist Brethren (Old Order Dunkers), Church of God (New Dunkers, disbanded in August 1962), and Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches.

Another group, historically unrelated..., known as the River Brethren, also took its ideology from the German Pietists.

Another -- the Plymouth Brethren -- is totally unrelated to any of these, being British rather than German in origin (See PLYMOUTH BRETHREN).
UNQUOTE

The denominations listed are: Bretheren Church (Ashland); Brethren in Christ Church; Church of the Brethren; Church of the United Brethren in Christ; Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches; Old German Baptist Brethren; United Zion Church. (This book does not list denominations of less than 200 members.)

Hutterian Brethern and Mennonite Brethren are also listed under Mennonites.

From the [i]Handbook of Denominations in the United States, Tenth Edition,[/i] Samuel S. Hill, 1995

So, I guess the question is, Mulls, what kind of Brethren are you?

Have I understood this correctly? You believe that God led you out of the Catholic Church and into the Assembly of God; but now He has led you out of the AOG Church and into the Brethren. I'm not commenting -- just asking if I got that right.

[Lil Red]

mulls, I am glad you are in a good place concerning your church life. and if God has led you out of the CC and into the AOG and now into the Brethren, who knows what he has in store for you in the future? I pray that in the future you will be as willing as you are now to go where HE wants you. God bless.

Edited May 20, 2004 by Lil Red Devil

[mulls]

[quote]So, I guess the question is, Mulls, what kind of Brethren are you?[/quote]

i think we're plymouth brethren, i'm not sure. doesn't matter to me, it's a church full of believers......manchester bible chapel.


[quote]Have I understood this correctly?  You believe that God led you out of the Catholic Church and into the Assembly of God; but now He has led you out of the AOG Church and into the Brethren.  I'm not commenting -- just asking if I got that right.[/quote]


i suppose you can say that. while i am thankful for the AG churches that i attended (great preaching, great worship, full of the joy of the Lord), i never really felt at home in either one. especially since i was constantly bouncing between being at school and home during breaks. i wasn't able to establish the personal relationships that i needed to in order to grow. when i came into the brethren assembly, i immediately encountered the love of the Lord from the congregation.

but as for your question....i really wasn't ever "in" the catholic church....i wasn't active, i was hardly a believer. i believe through a long setup of events, God was getting my attention, with the culmination being my giving my life to Him, which just happened to occur in an AG church.

i've been in the process of growing and being sanctified since then, and i believe i have found a place where i can grow, be instructed, and enjoy fruitful fellowship in a more personal atmosphere.

i'm hardly a proponent of "church shopping" like so many people tend to do. has God led me to this assembly? i hope so....i believe i am in the right place. i didn't leave the AG because of differences in doctrine or disputes about the bible or anything like that. (in fact, i never really "left" it, since i was never really a member. i was just attending church there) but i do plan on being a member of the bretheren assembly for a long time to come.


[quote]The local church is central.  In it members are true brothers and sisters.  The church claims their primary loyalty in a world that offers many societies for association.  It is understood more as a community of people who love God and one another than as part of an organization or a body that formulates doctrine.  Brethren do not emphasize tight doctrinal standards, rather, the spirit of God within each one, binding one another in love, takes precedence for them.[/quote]


i like that.

[mulls]

thank you lil red.

[M.SIGGA]

I knew a couple of Brethren kids and their family, I dunno which branch though, when I was growing up. Very very very nice people, who never responded with anything controversal or negative, but really some of the nicest and most humble people I've ever met. Now looking back, I think it was cool that they made their own toys and clothes, and for family entertainment all the children knew how to play different musical instraments so they had sort of a family orchestra instead of always watching TV and movies. I can understand why you say they are so nice and inviting. Peace be with you Mulls ... and hit me up with some of your college ministry stuff

[dUSt]

Still sounds to me that in the Brethren you're pretty much left on your own to figure things out. How would I find out the moral implications of modern day problems such as contraception, abortion, cloning, etc?

[mulls]

ask the older, wiser saints about their opinions, research, and pray.


dUSt, are you telling me that if it wasn't for the Church, you wouldn't be able to reason that killing babies is wrong, and attempting to create life outside of the natural order is wrong?


contraception is a little more tricky, but are you saying the ONLY way to figure this stuff out is to obey the Church's rulings?

[Aloysius]

the Church teaches that one can come to these conclusions based on human reason and their God-given moral conscience. But people can fool their conscience with their own biases and their own desires. The Church is a unmovable PILLAR (biblically discriptive word of the Church!) that when we stray because of our own desires and what not, we can cling onto the pillar. The Church informs our conscience so that we don't figure it out by our human reason influenced and tainted by our fallen nature's emotions and desires.

[dUSt]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 20 2004, 12:34 PM'] contraception is a little more tricky, but are you saying the ONLY way to figure this stuff out is to obey the Church's rulings? [/quote]
No, of course not.

Take 100 people, and 1/2 of them may decide contraception is morally okay, and the other 1/2 may decide it's not. In that case, 1/2 of the people got it right--so the Church is not the ONLY way to figure it out.

Same with cloning. Why not clone people? We are creating life. God is still the source of that creation--why wouldn't he want us to bring more life into this world? Where does the Bible teach us about this issue?

Again, take 100 people, and the majority might say it's morally wrong, but a good chunk will find it morally acceptable--yes, even after careful study of the Bible and honest prayer.

So where does that leave us? It leaves us in a situation where we are left in a personal state of moral decision making--with no guidance other than our own human (environmentally influenced) reasoning. So many factors, all the way down to what translation of the Bible one is using, will determine the outcome. There is no constant--too many variables. I don't believe this to be the way God intended it. I believe that he appointed apostles for a reason. If he intended for everyone to be equal as far as figuring out His teachings, why then did he only choose 12 specific men? Why did he not make everyone who believed in Him one of His apostles?

It's clear to me, that God's plan was a plan of order--of structure. It's the nature of this world--it's the nature of our human race--it's the nature of this universe. Everything has order. Everything has structure. Why would He make His Church any different?

For me, the Church is the only thing that makes a belief in God possible. The Church is what brings me to Jesus Christ--my savior. Without His church, I'd be lost--and I believe that this is exactly why He setup His Church the way He did.

God bless.

[mulls]

very reasonable answer Aloysius.

i'll stick to my human reason, my God-given moral conscience, prayer, fasting if necessary, and the influence of my brothers and sisters in Christ (including everyone here).

then i will form my own decision, as we have the freedom to do so.

if my decision is not in tune with God's will, i pray that He would smack me upside the head and let me know. otherwise, i must be willing to be held accountable for every decision i make, without excuse.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 20 2004, 12:34 PM'] ask the older, wiser saints about their opinions, research, and pray.


dUSt, are you telling me that if it wasn't for the Church, you wouldn't be able to reason that killing babies is wrong, and attempting to create life outside of the natural order is wrong?


contraception is a little more tricky, but are you saying the ONLY way to figure this stuff out is to obey the Church's rulings? [/quote]
I have to agree because there is a large number of "Christians" (defiant Catholics and some Protestants) making their own decisions right now who support Abortion or "the Right to Choose" including many pastors, especially in the Black Church community where I live - this is why I believe there has to be an outside authority established by Christ to govern and control, because absolutly nothing supporting abortion comes from Christ, but from Satan the devil, so there is no room for human reasoning. I believe some things are either absolutly right or absolutly wrong, and it can't be reasoned or compromised.

[Thomas DeVol]

Some one say something about the relationship of the 3 PEACE churches, Brethern, Minninite and Quakers. I was born a birthright Quaker in 1944