Usccb Allows Guitars At Mass

[Groo the Wanderer]

ppbt!


just sprayed my keyboard

wanna see iffen we kin git together a jug band with jawharp and saw?

[Admin]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345084477' post='2468389']
Ok I'm going to quote you so don't get mad at me



The cythera thing comes down to this. Here is the original mistranslation that you quoted.



You used this to say Pope Benedict had made a declarative statement banning the guitar from mass. I then showed that the closer translation of that paragraph was this



Then you came back and said that he uses the word cythara and say that he means guitar. Reread your translation or this one


He's quoting Aquinas in the original latin. Pope Benedict talks about how Aquinas doesn't care for the lyre and the harp then he quotes Aquinas! Which is why you see the word Cythara. There is no question that Benedict is talking about Aquinas's objection to the harp. And most experts would agree with me. Context is everything. (For the record we do not know what Aquinas's opinion of the guitar would be but there are many that think he would have loved Johnny Cash) If Pope Benedict wanted to name the guitar, he certainly could have. They chitarras had been common place in Italy (five string single form) for over 100 years. But he doesn't. People intentionally changed mandolin to guitar when quoting him. I think that's a shame.



There I go quoting you again!

Again it has to do with context. The Church is an organic entity and things that aren't considered dogmatic are open to change and growth. When the organ was introduced to Mass, it was a profane/secular instrument. It was introduced well before it was specifically allowed. It was an abuse and a lot of bishops priests and laypeople were offended by it. Do you wonder what changed people's mind? Several things! People got better at building organs, people got better at playing organs and most importantly, people got much much better at writing for the organ.

Now we look at today. You have correctly quoted documents that while not specifically naming the guitar do describe its characteristics. It is an instrument that doesn't work well with a bow (Jimmy Page looked stupid doing it) It is plucked or strummed. And here is the the key argument in your favor . The Church's instructions for liturgy are prescriptive not proscriptive. The Church tells us what we can do in liturgy and doesn't have to outline everything we can't do. She will give some examples but that isn't how we are to read liturgical instruction. For example, no where in the GIRM or in any Vatican II documents does it say that I cannot bring a cow to mass and have it blessed. They don't have to because liturgical documents are prescriptive.

So we have documents that without expressly naming the guitar, say that it is unfit for mass. End of story? Not when 50% of all Catholics in the world are allowed to have guitar at mass. Not when most if not all diocesan bishops in the US give permission for guitars to be played. And certainly not when guitars have been showing up and playing at Papal masses at World Youth Day.


Here's an interesting thing to throw into the mix. When synthesizers were first introduced to the public, the sounds were created through wave form. It was new and it was interesting but musicians found that it left people unsettled after a while. People were getting more agitated the more they listened to it. Why? Because wave based synthesized sounds didn't decay. They didn't have what was referred to as "breath". This is why there was such a strong move away from wave form sound to sampled sounds. You've majored in music so I have no doubt you have studied composition. You've seen that composers built points to breathe in their works. So what's my point?

While the pipe organ may emulate how the human voice works, the guitar breathes.


The guitar is considered today to be profane and secular. So was the organ when it was first introduced. The guitar is not allowed by liturgical instruction. Neither was the organ when it was first introduced. But while the rules were expressly against the organ, the music and the instrument continued to get better. It began as a loud raucous instrument used at festivals and associated with brothels and grew into an instrument that has pride of place in the Church. With half the Catholics (not including the US) in the world going to mass every weekend and celebrating a mass with the guitar as the chief instrument, there is every possibility that the guitar will be universally accepted as well.

You and others can disagree with that opinion and you have every right to do so. But when people state (or just infer) that masses that include guitar are automatically less reverent and sacred, then those people are stating that Latin American Catholics are all having a less reverent mass.

That's why I popped into the debate.
[/quote]

tldr

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Admin' timestamp='1345085756' post='2468412']
tldr
[/quote]

i agree. this thread has been full of tl;dr.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1345087482' post='2468434']
i agree. this thread has been full of tl;dr.
[/quote]

I think it's one of my more eloquent posts

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345087723' post='2468438']
I think it's one of my more eloquent posts
[/quote]

Your wiser than me or your avatar gives you credit for. I would like to see a few more right hooks from you jamie. But remember this is amateur boxing for points, we don't wan't to knock anyone out, unless they be a wolf.

[Adrestia]

Derailed. whew. now run!

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1345018232' post='2467841']
I didn't misunderstand anything you said (I understood it how you explained it. ) my main contention with what you've been saying is things like "noses so high in the air" and wealthy educated westerners and stuffy. I'm not wealthy. Never have been. Most likely never will be. I'm not sticking my nose in the air and I would discourage stuffy liturgies. I am educated and I am a westerner. But the roman rite IS the foundation of western culture. So I don't understand why you say that like its a bad thing.
[/quote]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one to notice it and take issue with it. There's a hidden purpose of accusing or insinuating people who argue against the use of the guitar at Mass as snobbish/stuck up, well off/rich but not rich, narrow-minded westerners. And that is to marginalize and discredit them. Tainting the perception of someone's character with such negativity makes it much easier to then attack and discredit their ideas and arguments. Who would want to agree with or entertain the ideas of someone that is stuck up and narrow minded? Very few people would want to agree with such persons. But whatever...

As for the actual topic no one can show that the Church teaches that the guitar is truly appropriate for the liturgy. Nor will anyone find where the Church says that is is suitable. The stringed instruments that have been given approval employ the use of the bow. The stringed instruments that have been banned employ the use of plucking or strumming.

If one argues that the introduction of the organ was an abuse until it was approved by the Church. Then one must conclude that the introduction of the guitar (which introduction coincided along side vast amounts of other abuses) 40 years ago is also an abuse until the Church approves its use. Is it wise to knowingly and openly support an abuse of the liturgy in hopes that hundreds of years from now (or any given time in the future) it may be finally approved by the Church for use at Mass? Doubtful. We cannot do evil in hopes that good may come from it. Also had I lived during the introduction of the organ and that introduction truly was an abuse I would not support or advocate its use until the Church approved it. But perhaps it was not an abuse if some historians are correct and Pope Vitalian actually did indeed introduce organs for Church worship at Rome around the year 670. Such papal approval would make the abuse argument invalid. Of course there are also historians that claim that the organ was already in common use in the Church in Spain 200 hundred years before Pope Vitalian according to a writing of a Bishop of the time named Julianus.

The Church doesn't need to produce a document banning the guitar's use in the liturgy before we should be against its abusive use in the liturgy. It needs to be approved before we employ and support its use in the liturgy. In any event this is about the billionth time this topic has been discussed. The great phatmasser of old, Cam42, quite strongly, extensively, and repeatedly handed pro-guitar mass advocates their glutei maximi. Should it be of intrest to anyone two such cases can be found [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/31830-yaythe-vernacular/page__st__320"]here[/url] and [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/49508-ahem/page__st__160"]here[/url].

Edited August 16, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[Jaime]

First of all, interesting timing on jumping in KFC Clearly you didn't bother to read much of the thread. Although I would have been surprised if you did. I'm glad you brought camster into the conversation! I think he would have a different view on his and my debate. He certainly wouldn't suggest that he handed me my butt. In fact he and I had multiple conversations on the phone during that debate about how much fun we were having. He's said on more than one occasion that he enjoyed debating me more than most people.

However if you would like to see a serious butt handing by the old Camster you HAVE to read the thread "[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/45151-are-pro-choice-catholics-heretics/"]Are Pro-choice Catholics Heretics[/url]! This is a 12 pager where he makes a rather uneducated Catholic his own private towel boy. It is a brilliant example of how Camster can teach. He's a good good guy!

I've pretty much said my peace in this thread!

[Ice_nine]

what this thread needs is more cowbell

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1345097567' post='2468526']
As for the actual topic no one can show that the Church teaches that the guitar is truly appropriate for the liturgy.
The Church doesn't need to produce a document banning the guitar's use in the liturgy before we should be against its abusive use in the liturgy.
[/quote]


If the bishop approves and allows a certain instrument (guitar, piano) for use in the Mass, is he not exercising the legitimate authority given him in [i]Sacrosanctum Concilium, [/i]120? As long the instrument can "be made suitable for the Liturgy", is "dignified", "contributes to the edification of the faithful", and plays nothing "profane", "clamorous" or "strident", it would appear to me that there is no abuse.

I am perfectly fine with there being no music at all at Mass, if the Church says there shouldn't be. I don't go to Mass to sing. But you are, in effect, saying that the bishops do not have an authority that--it would appear--they have been given. Unless there is a document which has rejected the apparent authority given them in [i]SC[/i] (ie, one newer than 1963) I do not see any reason to believe this. I cannot find a document like this, and haven't seen one quoted here or elsewhere. So...frankly, I'm confused. Can you or anyone else help me out? I don't want to resurrect the debate, I just want a document. A link or a book. You can message me if you want. Thanx!

[Gabriela]

You know what I like about this debate? It illustrates with crystal clarity how much all of you care deeply about the sanctity of the Mass.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345101919' post='2468548']
First of all, interesting timing on jumping in KFC Clearly you didn't bother to read much of the thread. [/quote]

I have read the whole thread, as well as the various other threads about the same topic. You pretty much make the same arguments as you've always have that Cam42 defeated with well sourced Church documents. Nothing you've offered here is really new. Same old same old.

[quote]Although I would have been surprised if you did. I'm glad you brought camster into the conversation! I think he would have a different view on his and my debate. He certainly wouldn't suggest that he handed me my butt. In fact he and I had multiple conversations on the phone during that debate about how much fun we were having. He's said on more than one occasion that he enjoyed debating me more than most people.[/quote]

I did contact him and asked for his views on the topic. So... surprise! Despite what you may think I have a profound respect for his wealth of knowledge as it pertains to Church teaching. He recalls the phone calls and I'm sure it was fun for him to easily crush your arguments and much of the fallacies upon which your arguments were based.

[quote]However if you would like to see a serious butt handing by the old Camster you HAVE to read the thread "[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/45151-are-pro-choice-catholics-heretics/"]Are Pro-choice Catholics Heretics[/url]! This is a 12 pager where he makes a rather uneducated Catholic his own private towel boy. It is a brilliant example of how Camster can teach. He's a good good guy!

I've pretty much said my peace in this thread!
[/quote]

Whether or not Catholic politicians commit heresy, or become some form of heretic by openly rejecting the Church's fundamental teachings on the sanctity of life is not a matter of this debate. But I understand the reasoning to bring it up. In the misery of being reminded of just how bad Cam42 crushed your arguments, you wish I be your company in that regard.

[Slappo]

Ad hominem vs ad hominem. Who will win? The straw man.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1345124030' post='2468590']
If the bishop approves and allows a certain instrument (guitar, piano) for use in the Mass, is he not exercising the legitimate authority given him in [i]Sacrosanctum Concilium, [/i]120? As long the instrument can "be made suitable for the Liturgy", is "dignified", "contributes to the edification of the faithful", and plays nothing "profane", "clamorous" or "strident", it would appear to me that there is no abuse.
[/quote]

A bishop cannot act outside the Magisterium. The piano is forbidden universally, by a Pope, bishops cannot supersede a Pope, a bishop cannot apply a particular and call it good. The same applies to the guitar.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1345166794' post='2468895']
Ad hominem vs ad hominem. Who will win? The straw man.


[/quote]

I didn't say Jaime was crushed by Cam (ie [color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Ad hominem)[/font][/color], but that Cam's arguments crushed Jaime's arguments.