No Tax Payment, No Blessing!

[beatitude]

I mostly agree with Anomaly on this one. The tax may be imposed by the government, but the German bishops are certainly colluding with it and the Church in Germany is benefiting from it financially.

I believe in the separation of church and state. History has demonstrated that when the two aren't separate, our religious practice becomes tainted (e.g. by a preoccupation with money and worldly power). The government should not be imposing some special religious tax in the first place and it is the responsibility of the bishops to oppose it if one is levied. Reading the articles about this case, I was reminded of Jesus' words about trying to serve God and Mammon.

I don't think that anyone should be disavowing their faith over this, but that doesn't mean they should just submit to it either.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1348861829' post='2487676']
That article is not saying anything I haven't said. The person must declare that they are no longer Catholic to opt out of the tax.

[i][color=#282828][font=Open Sans', sans-serif']"You can formally deregister from your religious organisation and this will also terminate your church tax exposure."[/font][/color][/i]

[font=Open Sans, sans-serif][color=#282828]If anything, this article reinforces what I was saying about the government requiring the tax, and not the Church.[/color][/font]
[/quote]dUSt,
The Government does not require the Tax.

German Laws allow religious communities to require the Tax and have it collected through the Government.

[color=#0000ff]In Germany, on the basis of tax regulations passed by the communities and within the limits set by state laws, communities may either[/color][list]
[*][color=#0000ff]require the taxation authorities of the state to collect the fees from the members on the basis of income tax assessment (then, the authorities withhold a collection fee), or[/color]
[*][color=#0000ff]choose to collect the church tax themselves.[/color]
[/list]

[ACS67]

dUSt, when I read the article I came to the conclusion that people are claiming to not belong to any religion because they cannot pay this tax. Perhaps Germans are as strapped as some of us Americans are. Some in the article stated they do indeed still have the faith but they cannot afford the tax. They should not be punished because of financial circumstances. Perhaps there is a waiver for those on hard times that is not mentioned in the article. Otherwise I find this outrageous. I would not be able to afford 8% tax to go to my parish on top of all the taxes I already pay. I would opt out but that in no way would mean I no longer "have the faith" or am denouncing my faith. I simply would not have the means to pay this tax and my bills therefore I would have to make an "official declaration" of "leaving the faith" based on the fact that I cannot pay the tax but the declaration would be false.

Again, that is how I am reading it. If I have missed something I am open to correction.

[dUSt]

I think you all are missing the point of opting out of the tax means you are publicly declaring you are not Catholic.

So, ACS67, you would make a declaration that you are not Catholic to avoid the tax?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1348862994' post='2487683']
dUSt,
The Government does not require the Tax.

German Laws allow religious communities to require the Tax and have it collected through the Government.

[color=#0000ff]In Germany, on the basis of tax regulations passed by the communities and within the limits set by state laws, communities may either[/color][list]
[*][color=#0000ff]require the taxation authorities of the state to collect the fees from the members on the basis of income tax assessment (then, the authorities withhold a collection fee), or[/color]
[*][color=#0000ff]choose to collect the church tax themselves.[/color]
[/list]
[/quote]

Where does it say the government does not require the tax?

I see:
- require taxation authorities to collect tax
- communities collect tax themselves

I do not see
- do not collect the tax

[dUSt]

If it is as easy as the Catholic Church in Germany saying, "we do not require a Church tax" and the German government saying, "okay", then why hasn't this been done yet?

[Slappo]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348863251' post='2487685']
dUSt, when I read the article I came to the conclusion that people are claiming to not belong to any religion because they cannot pay this tax. Perhaps Germans are as strapped as some of us Americans are. Some in the article stated they do indeed still have the faith but they cannot afford the tax. They should not be punished because of financial circumstances. Perhaps there is a waiver for those on hard times that is not mentioned in the article. Otherwise I find this outrageous. I would not be able to afford 8% tax to go to my parish on top of all the taxes I already pay. I would opt out but that in no way would mean I no longer "have the faith" or am denouncing my faith. I simply would not have the means to pay this tax and my bills therefore I would have to make an "official declaration" of "leaving the faith" based on the fact that I cannot pay the tax but the declaration would be false.

Again, that is how I am reading it. If I have missed something I am open to correction.
[/quote]

It's more like a 1.6%ish tax on your gross middle class income that goes to the Church. For someone who is poor, they pay a lower % of their income in taxes to the government, and 8-9% of the taxes they pay would be less than 1.6% of their gross income.

If a tax of 9% of your income taxes was imposed in the USA it would look like this for a 20k a year single income individual with no dependents, no student loans, no other deductions:
[b]20k gross[/b] - 5950 standard deduction - 3800 personal exemption = 10250 taxable income. The tax bracket for income under 17k is 10%. 10250*0.10 = 1025 in taxes. Now add the 9% church tax to your 1025 in taxes. 1025*0.09=$92.25 for the year. Split out into monthly payments? 92.25/12=[b]$7.69 a month church tax[/b].

One should probably be tithing more than that anyways. On top of that, is renouncing your faith worth $7.69 a month even if you are dirt poor? Fast one day a month to save on food costs and there you have it. Now you're fasting [b]and[/b] tithing!



The Church is not providing the tax, the government is. That being said, I think the Church should be opposed to the tax and should effectively lobby or petition the government to take the tax off of Catholics. Morally the Church is right to [b]refrain from providing sacraments to those who have publicly renounced the faith[/b]. Refusing confession though? How else do you confess your sin of renouncing the faith? You have to fill out paperwork and show proof of enrollment before you can walk into the confessional?

[Anomaly]

dUSt,
The part "on the basis of tax regulations passed by the communities". The "communities" are the Religions that have met the Government standards to be declared as an acceptable religion/community and is provided taxing authority. They community is allowed to set the tax rate on their members (limited to what's allowed by Government). The Community can either choose to collect the tax themselves, or collect it via the Government for a fee.

What if the Church decided to collect it themselves and would then have to worry about 'enforcement' and make allowances. I have not seen anything that requires a 'community' to collect taxes. But even so, isn't the Church allowed to change the tax rate?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1348864655' post='2487692']
What if the Church decided to collect it themselves and would then have to worry about 'enforcement' and make allowances. I have not seen anything that requires a 'community' to collect taxes. But even so, isn't the Church allowed to change the tax rate?
[/quote]

Let's assume that the government requires the tax to be collected. I don't know, and I'm assuming you don't either. For the sake of the discussion, let's assume the government requires it. In other words, it's the law.

Are you proposing that the Catholic Church opt for the "we'll collect the taxes ourselves" option, and then break the law by not requiring everyone to pay the tax?

[Winchester]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1348863915' post='2487687']
I think you all are missing the point of opting out of the tax means you are publicly declaring you are not Catholic.

So, ACS67, you would make a declaration that you are not Catholic to avoid the tax?
[/quote]
Nobody has a moral obligation to tell the government they're Catholic. It's an asinine law.

[quote]Let's assume that the government requires the tax to be collected. I don't know, and I'm assuming you don't either. For the sake of the discussion, let's assume the government requires it. In other words, it's the law.

Are you proposing that the Catholic Church opt for the "we'll collect the taxes ourselves" option, and then break the law by not requiring everyone to pay the tax?[/quote]
Not all laws made by stupid politicians should be obeyed. The Church should tell the German government to go hang.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Winchester

[ACS67]

Slappo,
You are assuming US tax deductions on a German tax system. The article gave an estimate...it's about 9% according to the article. Therefore a $25,000 salary would incur $2250 yearly in tax to the Church, about $187.50 per month. And no...I do not tithe that much.

dUSt,
I would never "pay to pray." That's not why I tithe....

Edited September 28, 2012 by ACS67

[dUSt]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348867480' post='2487706']
dUSt,
I would never "pay to pray." That's not why I tithe....
[/quote]

So you would publicly declare that you are not Catholic to avoid the tax.
We differ. I wouldn't.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1348867099' post='2487702']
Nobody has a moral obligation to tell the government they're Catholic. It's an asinine law.
Not all laws made by stupid politicians should be obeyed. The Church should tell the German government to go hang.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhXsD7bct_M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhXsD7bct_M[/url]

[Nihil Obstat]

I am really torn by this one.

On the one hand, it is objectively wrong, and if I am not mistaken grave matter, for a Catholic to actually actively say or make some kind of statement that "I am not Catholic." While it is not possible under current canon law to formally apostatize, it is still gravely wrong to deny the Church.
Making some assumptions about how these tax forms are worded, it is entirely conceivable to me that opting out of the church tax would require some kind of active denial of the faith, therefore gravely sinful, and presumably that person excommunicates himself latae sententiae. Looking at it that way, this person should not present himself for Communion for obvious reasons.

On the other hand, I find it problematic for the German bishops to be colluding with the State in such a way. That strikes me as very much a deal with the devil.

Basically these problems are on two very different levels, one overtly political, and one exclusively canonical and moral, making this a rather strange, even disjointed discussion.

Sooner or later our bishops are going to have to understand that nothing good ever comes from getting cozy with the State. It has already bitten us in the US, because we got complacent. Now we are dealing with attacks on freedom of religion and freedom of conscience. In Canada at least one Catholic bishop was charged with what essentially amounts to hatespeech simply for reiterating the Catholic position on homosexual 'marriage'. These attacks will get worse.

We as a Church are in a position right now where the State, in nearly every relevant nation worldwide, is either an enemy, or a very shifty neutral party. At the mildest we should be very suspicious of every government action that vaguely relates to religion. Frankly, in most cases we need to treat the State as a predator which, if it has not attacked already, is simply waiting for the best opportunity to do so.

Instead we still try to treat the State as an ally. It is not. That is a naive and dangerous oversight. It is going to keep coming back to bite us, again and again. The State is beneath us, really. It is based on lies and manipulation. We are doing nothing more than dirtying our hands by interacting with it.

[CatherineM]

There was a time in the early church where in order to have a state job you had to swear you weren't Christian. Denying the faith to save money is the same as denying the church to make money.

[Slappo]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348867480' post='2487706']
Slappo,
You are assuming US tax deductions on a German tax system. The article gave an estimate...it's about 9% according to the article. Therefore a $25,000 salary would incur $2250 yearly in tax to the Church, about $187.50 per month. And no...I do not tithe that much.

dUSt,
I would never "pay to pray." That's not why I tithe....
[/quote]

ACS you're way off.

Applying the US Tax code would show what this same tax would look like if it were ever instituted in the United States.

[quote][b]Kirchensteuer - Church tax[/b]

If you belong to one of the main religions and you put this down when you register as resident at your arrival in Germany you will have to pay church tax. [b]Take 8% of your [u]income tax due in a year[/u][/b], and it is ON TOP. Only consolation is that you can deduct it from your gross income in your income tax statement (Einkommensteuer). You can formally deregister from your religious organisation and this will also terminate your church tax exposure.[/quote]


No... a $25k salary would incur 8% of the total income taxes they paid. Lets assume Germany even has a crazy 30% tax rate. 25k*.3=7500 in income taxes. 8% of your income taxes is then 7500*.08=$600. $600 split monthly is [b]$50 a month[/b].

That's assuming they pay [b]$7.5k in taxes on 25k of gross income [/b]though.

[Winchester]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1348871920' post='2487731']
There was a time in the early church where in order to have a state job you had to swear you weren't Christian. Denying the faith to save money is the same as denying the church to make money.
[/quote]
There's no option to just not answer. It's coercion. It's not a sin to give into physical threats. And that's what this is, make no mistake. Any Catholic enforcing this law is in danger of grave sin, but Catholics who circumvent it somehow are well within their rights. I hope the black market grows in power from this the essence of cow.

[ACS67]

The Church is wrong on this matter. And let's be honest....it ain't the first time they have been wrong!

[Slappo]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1348873056' post='2487738']
The Church is wrong on this matter. And let's be honest....it ain't the first time they have been wrong!
[/quote]

Sure, but so are the Catholics who deny the Faith in order to avoid a tax.

[ACS67]

$50 a month pays a bill or two in my house hombre....