How Can Men Be Like Mary?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Ellenita' date='May 22 2004, 05:18 PM']
The logic of this kind of argument presupposes that women in protestant churches can't identify with Jesus or say that they are striving to be more like Him...... [/quote]
Yeah, what she said.

[Katholikos]

Ellenita:

:tiphat:

[Dusty Fro]

No one answered my question of "Why isn't there a 'Imatitation of Jesus' thread?" I don't see examples of Mary having that much contact with the disciples until the crucifixion.

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]mulls writes:[/b]
good friday, are you being catholic today?[/quote]
First, I'd like to say that I hope every thread I post in isn't going to hang on the question of whether or not I'm being Catholic today. I posted something about an anti-pope in another thread, and got two private messages asking whether or not I had decided to come back to the church. In actuality, I had not, and was only posting about it for clarification. What I posted was objectively true: according to Catholic teaching, the man elected by the whole College of Cardinals is pope, and he will be pope until he abdicates or dies, so according to Catholic teaching anyone who claims to be the pope while the man elected by the conclave is still alive and has not abdicated is an anti-pope. This does not take being Catholic to understand, it is perfectly understandable and objectively true to non-Catholics as well. And yet I still got two private messages asking if I had come back to the church. I really wish that would stop, since my faith is my business.

For the purpose of clarification, though, I will answer your question: yes, I am "being Catholic today," but I am not the kind of Catholic that most of the people on this forum would hope for. In other words, I'm not an orthodox Catholic, and I probably never will be. But I can't seem to effectively separate myself from the church without feeling spiritually dead inside, so I stay, but I don't obey what I think is preposterous. I'm a "cafeteria Catholic" -- as is every other Catholic I've ever met, including the ones on this forum. Admitting to being a cafeteria Catholic, in my mind, is being an honest Catholic. No one agrees with 100% of what the church has always universally taught -- ask ten Catholics about Limbo, no salvation outside the church, etc. and see if you don't think I'm right.

Now, back to the original purpose of the thread, which was:

[quote][b]Dusty Fro asks:[/b]
No one answered my question of "Why isn't there a 'Imatitation of Jesus' thread?" I don't see examples of Mary having that much contact with the disciples until the crucifixion.[/quote]
Well, for one thing, the imitation of Mary is the imitation of Jesus. Mary was the first and best disciple of Jesus, so imitating the woman who perfectly imitated Jesus is the equivalent of imitating Jesus. Secondly, while there may not be a thread here like that, one of the best selling Catholic books of all time is called [i]The Imitation of Christ[/i] by Thomas A. Kempis, which is all about imitating Jesus. Being Catholic is, essentially, rooted in the imitation of Jesus. The Mass itself is the imitation of Jesus.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='May 23 2004, 06:15 PM'] No one answered my question of "Why isn't there a 'Imatitation of Jesus' thread?" I don't see examples of Mary having that much contact with the disciples until the crucifixion. [/quote]
I was looking forward to your response to Ellenita's post -- her logic is inescapable. Please do reply.

Protestants make an assumption that everything we need to know about Jesus and His teachings was recorded in the New Testament. But the NT is a record of the spiritual journey of the newborn Catholic Church during the first 100 years or so of its existence. It's purpose is not to teach Christians what to believe or how to practice their faith. The letters -- more than half of the NT -- were written to address problems that arose in the local churches the Apostles had founded in carrying out their commission to spread the Gospel. They instructed their converts [i]orally[/i]. The letters were supplementary. The Gospels were written later and are the recorded [i]memories[/i] of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. We would need a separate thread for Bible issues. But my point is that a lot went on that was not recorded in the NT. The NT is a part of the story.

You may start an imitation of Jesus thread if you wish. The best selling book in the world, next to the Bible, is by Thomas á Kempis, called the [i]Imitation of Christ[/i]. I'll open a thread by that title. Meet you there?

But I don't think that's your point. You think too much attention is paid to Mary and not enough to Jesus -- right? This is a common complaint among Protestants, who misunderstand Mary's role in Catholic life.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[mulls]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 23 2004, 07:43 PM'] I'm a "cafeteria Catholic" -- as is every other Catholic I've ever met, including the ones on this forum. Admitting to being a cafeteria Catholic, in my mind, is being an honest Catholic. No one agrees with 100% of what the church has always universally taught -- ask ten Catholics about Limbo, no salvation outside the church, etc. and see if you don't think I'm right.

[/quote]
very good, thanks for the clarification.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote][b]GoodFriday writes:[/b]
I'm a "cafeteria Catholic" -- as is every other Catholic I've ever met, including the ones on this forum. Admitting to being a cafeteria Catholic, in my mind, is being an honest Catholic. No one agrees with 100% of what the church has always universally taught -- ask ten Catholics about Limbo, no salvation outside the church, etc. and see if you don't think I'm right.[/quote]

You shouldn't take you personal opinion and put them on others and their point of views! We are all learning, this is a debate table, I don't know it all, and I learn stuff everyday from here. So to say someone who might misunderstand something and call them a "cafeteria Catholic" is wrong and uncharitable.

God Bless
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

I submit my will to that of God's Will (only by His grace) and hope to come to learn and teach others the One Truth.

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]Jason writes:[/b]
You shouldn't take you personal opinion and put them on others and their point of views! We are all learning, this is a debate table, I don't know it all, and I learn stuff everyday from here. So to say someone who might misunderstand something and call them a "cafeteria Catholic" is wrong and uncharitable.[/quote]
I apologize if what I said was uncharitable, but there are many people who understand perfectly well and still reject church teaching. These are, by you folks' own definition, "cafeteria Catholics." Most believe that cafeteria Catholics only exist among liberals, but that's not the case: the Society of St. Pius X, the Society of St. Pius V, Una Voce International, etc. etc. are all populated by cafeteria Catholics. And the church itself is populated by cafeteria Catholics, because I've yet to meet one Catholic who [b]really[/b] accepts everything that the magisterium teaches.

[quote]I submit my will to that of God's Will (only by His grace) and hope to come to learn and teach others the One Truth.[/quote]
Me too.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]because I've yet to meet one Catholic who really accepts everything that the magisterium teaches.[/quote]

I know this is getting off topic but share, what do you mean I know people who submit to the magisterium. I do

Give some examples of why you think some do not if you wish!

God Bless
Jason

Oh already forgiven, much love brother

[Katholikos]

How about a "who subscribes to everything the Magisterium teaches" thread?

I do, for one. Jason does, that's two.

Edited May 24, 2004 by Katholikos

[Theologian in Training]

DustyFro,

We imitate those we love, or spend a lot of time around. If we take Mary as our Mother then being in Her arms constantly offers us the opportunity to learn from her those things that are pleasing to Christ and draw us closer to Him. She is a model of humility and purity, and teaches us to have a similar predisposition. Also, sometimes our imitation becomes the very thing that helps us understand Christ all the more, for who was closer to Christ than His very own Mother, and who can show us how to act and carry ourselves in His presence better than His own Mother.

At the same time, we also learn a very important truth, the mission is not our own and when God calls and asks us to act, if we have been obedient students of the teaching of His Mother than we will know to reply as she did, "Be it done unto me according to Thy Word." In other words, She teaches us to be humble before our God and when praised for that obedience and humility to glorify God alone, for when She was greeted by Elizabeth rather than thanking her for realizing She was bearing the child of God, She immediately responded "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit rejoces in God my Savior." Not look at me, look what I have done, but look at me and see what God has done, for it all begins and ends with Him. She merely teaches us to be aware, obedient, and loving of that profound reality.

Just because I am a man, does not mean I cannot learn profound truths from a woman, if that were the case we would have no women doctors of the Church.

Hope that helps

God Bless

[Dusty Fro]

I just feel like Jesus gets left in the dust in Catholic world. In front of the alter is always a depiction of Christ DYING an agonizing death for the sake of mankind, but the thing the Catholic Church is associated with most is Mary and saints. And the Pope, don't forget him. It just seems a little bit of a backwards focus to me. Doesn't jive right with my belief-o-monitor.

I'll answer whoever's post when I go back and read it after this.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='May 24 2004, 01:25 AM'] I just feel like Jesus gets left in the dust in Catholic world.  In front of the alter is always a depiction of Christ DYING an agonizing death for the sake of mankind, but the thing the Catholic Church is associated with most is Mary and saints.  And the Pope, don't forget him.  It just seems a little bit of a backwards focus to me.  Doesn't jive right with my belief-o-monitor.

I'll answer whoever's post when I go back and read it after this. [/quote]
tho it may seem like that from the outside, it is not so

think about when a couple gets married, they do not just focus on each other but through their family members, friends from childhood, and all their loved ones from both lives of each one. Our Heavenly Father is similar because when we encounter Jesus, we also encounter those He loves most highly (His Beloved Mother and Saints). He wishes us to recieve him fully in many ways, such as sacraments, etc. because through those He is also. thinking of this as two ppl getting married you are now a part of the other, never once loving "yours truly" any less but only stronger.

i know i can say i care so much about my best friend not only cuz i know her but because i knew her family, parents and siblings. the ties are stronger than any. as a friend, those ties only strengthened. when i see my friend, or think of her, a part of her i think of is those others that are a part of her as well. us catholics, when we come to know Jesus, loving all parts of the Heavenly family, never once loving Jesus any less, but rather stronger.

likewise our Heavenly Father, we strive to care and honor those Jesus wants us to be a part of. our focus and center of it all is Jesus, the Blessed Mother points, leads and guides us to Her Son, Jesus Christ. they magnify the Lord and lead us to Him in our faith.

God bless,
+JMJ+

[Dusty Fro]

Well since Jesus and Mary showed the same characteristics and actions like gentleness and charity, I see them as gender neutral characteristics. In our misogynist society, showing those things through a man, Jesus, is like projecting them onto a gender neutral figure. He is God, after all, and encompasses all humanity, despite the identification of Him as a Father, Son, etc. I don't find that hard to reconcile at all. I can identify well with Jesus. He was an radical outcast, scorned and hated for doing what he knew was right. He went out on a limb, defying authorities and mores to help those who others rejected. Yeah, I can identify with that.

I can identify with Mary, because as a woman I can realize the gravity of her decision and situation. I can understand the dilemma, because I can seriously consider the idea of carrying a child, something a man cannot do. A man couldn't completely understand the situation because the same standards aren't held to men. Joseph had the right to have Mary dragged out and stoned.

I guess I see Mary, despite being the one who raised Jesus, as just another of His followers. She wanted to be like Jesus herself, I'm sure, which I don't doubt she accomplished (minus the whole crucifixion thing) so shouldn't we look to the source? Isn't that what the great fathers of the Christian church said? (I'm not a great memorizer) Don't follow me, follow the one who sent me.

Telling men to be more like Mary doesn't...doesn't seem like the focus is on the first hand source. It's like, "Men, be like this woman" You think of her as a woman, and if I were a man, it would be much harder for me to identify with Mary than with Jesus.

I should probably say here that the place of Mary in the church and the politics of the Catholic Church government are what keeps me "protestant" so to speak, so I apologize for upsetting the fruit basket a bit. If you really want to convert me, you'll have to put up with my questions No, please don't intentionally try to convert me. God will do that on His own if He wants.

[littleflower+JMJ]

dusty fro, i can assure you no one is here to convert you, again that is God's job, not ours, He alone changes hearts.

we strive to present the teachings of the Holy Mother church and Truth accurately, praying that it will lead us all ever closer to Jesus.

+JMJ+

[Dusty Fro]

Ah, that bit was a little joke. I fear you not!

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='May 24 2004, 02:03 AM'] Ah, that bit was a little joke. I fear you not! [/quote]
its all good, just glad your here dusty!

[RandomProddy]

How can women be like Jesus?

[jasJis]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='May 24 2004, 10:09 AM'] How can women be like Jesus? [/quote]
Very good point. Love and charity can be both Gender Specific and Gender Neutral.