AccountDeleted Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 [quote name='Sponsa-Christi' timestamp='1352031258' post='2503819'] [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]Right now, I’m just a Canon Law student, but I just want to point out that the above-mentioned information is [u][i]NOT[/i][/u] included anywhere in Canon Law (e[color=#000000]ven if the above-listed steps might have perhaps been helpful a founder at some point, or in a less-official context). [/color]And actually, I don't think the [i]Code of Canon Law[/i] really lists anything like step-by-step instructions for the founding of entirely new religious communities. To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as invisible Canon Law. There are some binding laws that are not included in the Code itself (for example, a great deal of liturgical law is only included in the texts of the rituals themselves), but I don't think we could really call these laws “invisible.†Also, although you could say that both established religious communities and developing religious communities are specific types of associations of the faithful, in general an association of the faithful is not something that necessarily needs to have anything to do with religious life. I.e., it’s completely possible to have an association of the faithful that intends to remain simply a private association of laypeople. [color=#222222]My own thought is that if someone did feel called to start a new religious community, it might best to start by going directly to the local bishop; and/or by finding a knowledgeable and prayerful canon lawyer to talk to in person, perhaps preferably one who is familiar with the pastoral needs and circumstances of the local diocese. I think this would allow one to get a better and much clearer picture of what would be realistically possible in one’s concrete circumstances, what kind of specific challenges one would be likely to face, what sort of questions would need to be resolved, the actual steps needed in order to move forward in a specific case, etc. (This is of course after talking to one’s spiritual director and discerning that one is seeking to found a community for the right reasons.)[/color] [color=#222222]I think one book that gives a good sense of what kind of issues need to be taken into consideration when founding a new religious community is [url="http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Teresa-Private-Writings-Calcutta/dp/B00394DH18/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1352031055&sr=1-1"][i]Come, Be My Light[/i][/url], which recounts the story of Mother Teresa’s founding the Missionaries of Charity.[/color][/size][/font] [/quote] Thank you - this is all excellent advice and information. If the Bishop is not readily available, a good person to approach is the Episcopal Vicar for Religious in your diocese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I send periodical reports to my local ordinary who is a canonist himself. We have other canonists available through our affiliate founders. All of our groups begin as lay associations. Such do not require "approval". Then the preparatory association emerges from the LAF. Works by Fr Gambari are recommended because he literally wrote the book on founding charisms. The Guidelines available from the IRL are the same guidelines which the Vicars for Religious have available. My Dominican SD has 25 years of experience with emerging charisms. We are well-covered. Please do not let this thread degenerate into bullying. I know what I am doing and what I'm talking about. The quote about invisible canon law was made by a religious sister in an online article. If you're that concerned, google it. SC--I support you in your vocation and your studies. I would appreciate a return of the favor. If anything goes awry, I have supportive clergy here locally who can help. They truly live canon 605 here. Nunsense--you know I have always supported you and grieve with you when you don't find the right place. I will always pray for you, even after you find your true home. A good stand-in for an SD is the LOTH. I have found this to be true myself. Almost uncanny how it manifests (right word)? Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deusluxmea Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Gemma, On here and in other forums, people have brought up legitimate and charitable concerns about your projects. Sometimes you may hear things you don't want to hear, but that does not mean that you are being bullied or persecuted. When I saw the phrase "stable source of habit parts", my ears pricked up because I have only seen this phrase used on Cloister Outreach documents and nowhere else. One criticism over the years is that CO seems highly preoccupied with external manifestations of religious life, and less committed to disciplined formation and the lived realities of being a religious. I was suprised to learn that you, though arguably very learned on some aspects of vocations, have not lived as a religious, nor are there convents set up for your infinite charisms. Perhaps these are growing pains for your projects, but I do find it unusual that married lay woman is putting forth so many projects while not, to my best knowledge, planning to live in as a monastic/woman religious herself. Learning how to receieve criticism, though painful, is absoutely necessary for our spiritual formation as individuals. And I am not convinced that an uncritical acceptance of everything you say because you have a website and a list serv is going to serve anybody, including yourself, in the long term. I anticipate that you might not like what I say. I pray that you may see that it is coming from a place of respect and Christian charity. All of you are in my prayers. DLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 [quote name='deusluxmea' timestamp='1352050809' post='2503908'] Gemma, On here and in other forums, people have brought up legitimate and charitable concerns about your projects. Sometimes you may hear things you don't want to hear, but that does not mean that you are being bullied or persecuted. When I saw the phrase "stable source of habit parts", my ears pricked up because I have only seen this phrase used on Cloister Outreach documents and nowhere else. One criticism over the years is that CO seems highly preoccupied with external manifestations of religious life, and less committed to disciplined formation and the lived realities of being a religious. I was suprised to learn that you, though arguably very learned on some aspects of vocations, have not lived as a religious, nor are there convents set up for your infinite charisms. Perhaps these are growing pains for your projects, but I do find it unusual that married lay woman is putting forth so many projects while not, to my best knowledge, planning to live in as a monastic/woman religious herself. Learning how to receieve criticism, though painful, is absoutely necessary for our spiritual formation as individuals. And I am not convinced that an uncritical acceptance of everything you say because you have a website and a list serv is going to serve anybody, including yourself, in the long term. I anticipate that you might not like what I say. I pray that you may see that it is coming from a place of respect and Christian charity. All of you are in my prayers. DLM [/quote] Thank you for the prayers and your opinion. I have already stated that we have the resources assembled. It is up to the founders themselves to take care of the rest. We offer support and encouragement, but they have to be the ones to live the life. I cannot do it for them. I honestly do not know what else to say. I work with these people and they go take care of their vocations. They could care less about what people on the public forums think of them. They have found their vocations and nobody is going to deprive them of it. "Stable source of habit parts" is what was given to me. My SD has said the habit is also based on the rule taken. So the habit is a part of what is necessary for recognition from the bishop. The bishop I spoke with asked me point blank 'Who is going to make your habit?" I didn't have an answer, despite trying to work on it at home. I have nothing else to say. Doubt if you wish, but do not hinder others. They have a right to associate with us if the Spirit leads them to do so. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmaberry101 Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 (edited) Just suggesting that these critiques be taken to private message. I should note here that I am not a moderator or admin of PM edit: or VS. Edited November 4, 2012 by emmaberry101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatitude Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 (edited) Gemma, for me the issue with these posts is that in the past you have said things that don't add up. You wrote that you had a specific canonist guiding you, and that you were in regular contact with her. When people contacted that canonist to verify what you were saying (as you told them to do if they had concerns) she said that she had spoken with you only once or twice and had then ceased contact, and she wasn't supporting your projects. Your bishop wrote that you were 'not known to the diocese'. I don't doubt that you send reports to him, but this is hardly a two-way relationship. Emma, I would ordinarily say this privately, but Gemma is being very public about her projects and once again writing things that could give people the impression that she is having regular in-depth discussions with canon lawyers and enjoying ecclesial support. Past events suggest that this may not be accurate. Gemma, you're right that people have a right to associate with you if they want to, but I think it's only fair that they have full information first. There is a risk that you make yourself sound more 'official' than you are. Edited November 4, 2012 by beatitude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 (edited) The negative publicity spoken of was in 2010. There had been a miscommunication with the canonist, as has been explained before. "Not known in this diocese"--when was that written? 2010? I have spoken with the Chancellor by phone since 2010. All of the negative publicity was taking place when I was seriously ill and grieving the death of the last parent. Is that charitable? I have sent His Excellency yearly reports. I have also made priest recommendations. I received an email back from the Chancery, giving me the diocesan contact name for these priests. In the yearly reports I sign with both my real name and my internet moniker. When I spoke with the Chancellor, he said he had spoken with someone regarding me and he said that he thought I was being responsible with this vocational work. He was very calm about everything. If you procure a copy of the IRL guidelines, they will say that emerging charisms should get IN WRITING from the canonist exactly what that canonist will do for the charism. Being jettisoned by a canonist happens all the time, as my SD can assure you. My SD says live the life. Bishops can't approve what is not lived. That's the whole point. I forgot to say that I had a 2-4 hour face-to-face meeting with the canonist at a local Catholic facility. I never spoke to her on the phone, and I have extensive email correspondence from her. We would spend 4 hours a day emailing. It was very time-consuming. Blessings, Gemma Edited November 4, 2012 by Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 (edited) [quote] Nunsense--you know I have always supported you and grieve with you when you don't find the right place. I will always pray for you, even after you find your true home. [/quote] Gemma - thank you for your prayers. I pray for you too. I hope you find what you are looking for too. It has been a long road for you as well. Edited November 4, 2012 by nunsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovemberFourth Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share Posted November 5, 2012 Hi all, I have to admit this thread has taken a different direction than the one I originally intended when I started the thread. I will, personally, bear everything everyone has said in mind. From a personal point of view might I just state that I am not, at this point, considering opening a Convent. I am just thinking about - and only thinking about - starting an Association. If I do go ahead, and that may or may not happen, and further down the line the need or desire for a Convent becomes evident I will cross that bridge then. At the moment I just considering this and trying to discern the will of God. Trust me, I am in no particular rush and have no driving wish to be a Founder. Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Here is one link which gives the canons for lay associations, both private and public. [url="http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/canon/c0204-0329.htm#par651"]http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/canon/c0204-0329.htm#par651[/url] Dear Julie, what you sound like you are needing to do is simply develop a Personal Prayer Rule with your inspirations, then develop that into statutes for a lay association. Just do what you're being led to do and the documents will write themselves. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 [quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1352056294' post='2503982'] Gemma, for me the issue with these posts is that in the past you have said things that don't add up. You wrote that you had a specific canonist guiding you, and that you were in regular contact with her. When people contacted that canonist to verify what you were saying (as you told them to do if they had concerns) she said that she had spoken with you only once or twice and had then ceased contact, and she wasn't supporting your projects. Your bishop wrote that you were 'not known to the diocese'. I don't doubt that you send reports to him, but this is hardly a two-way relationship. Emma, I would ordinarily say this privately, but Gemma is being very public about her projects and once again writing things that could give people the impression that she is having regular in-depth discussions with canon lawyers and enjoying ecclesial support. Past events suggest that this may not be accurate. Gemma, you're right that people have a right to associate with you if they want to, but I think it's only fair that they have full information first. There is a risk that you make yourself sound more 'official' than you are. [/quote] As founder, I am also known as the promoter and have the responsibility of doing just that--promoting. Our affiliate founders depend on me to promote them as well. Fr Gambari states that founders are promoters in his book. That being said, I have to run the gauntlet that he describes--people not understanding what we're doing. The canonist incident was just simply another cross the project had to bear. Fr Gambari also says just to start living the life, and the bishop will get wind of it eventually. Women are almost obsessive-compulsive about checking in with the bishop first. While he can describe how the charism could work in his diocese, there's also a chance that he won't know how to go about working with an emerging charism, and will cut them off. Our Fullerton Society brings the founders together and we establish groundwork guidelines that include the suggestion of sending a note to the bishop to let him know such is going on, but they are not sure whether or not they will be remaining in the diocese. This is due to the resources brought to the charism. Should something develop and they will not be remaining in the diocese, the Chancery will be informed. Some bishops--if they don't know what they're doing where emerging charisms are concerned--will sometimes try to interfere with the inspirations of the founders. Fr. Gambari says this is not a good thing. The founder's initial inspirations should be followed as closely as possible. The emerging charism is also encouraged to incorporate as a non-profit entity. This is to prevent the bishop from taking it over. Hermits do the same thing, only as solitaries. This is why you see a hermit with a website whose title is in the plural. They have a non-profit entity, but it has to have a plural name. I know of one eremite who is a public association, and she has a board of directors. She would eventually like to have a laura. I honestly don't know what else to say, other than the negative publicity has damaged our project, and only the grace of God is going to get us out of it. Canon 605 says to support emerging charisms. I have attached the statutes of a lay association which disbanded. These statutes clearly show the canonical references and the points to be covered.[attachment=3026:corpuschristianum.pdf] "Mutuae Relationes" is another suggested reading: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/ciclcbis.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/...ia/ciclcbis.htm[/url] I also cannot help but feel prejudice against me because I am a married woman. I can now relate to the pioneer women jockeys who were told to "go home and do dishes." But, as stated before, the affiliate founders could care less what the world thinks of them--and public forums in particular. They have found their vocations and they will not be deprived of them. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I don't know much about this, what are Associations of the Faithful? Can anyone give an example of one? Is this the first step to forming a monastery? Or can someone form a monastery from the start? This is just a topic I don't know anything about, sorry if my questions are kind of silly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 [quote name='MarysLittleFlower' timestamp='1352402307' post='2506604'] I don't know much about this, what are Associations of the Faithful? Can anyone give an example of one? Is this the first step to forming a monastery? Or can someone form a monastery from the start? This is just a topic I don't know anything about, sorry if my questions are kind of silly! [/quote] Not silly at all. An association of the faithful can be one person, or a group of people, who are associating for the sake of promoting the faith somehow. The effort can give rise to several members feeling attracted to religious life. If that happens they become a preparatory association. They also add the tag 'with the intention of becoming an institute of religious life' and begin living as a community. Once they find out what works for them, they ask the local bishop's recognition. HTH Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 thanks for the reply Gemma! that helps... is this how all religious communities start, or are there those that start as monasteries from the beginning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='MarysLittleFlower' timestamp='1352405096' post='2506626'] thanks for the reply Gemma! that helps... is this how all religious communities start, or are there those that start as monasteries from the beginning? [/quote] The association of the faithful is the route the church has chosen to take. Such is much easier. Used to be, a man had to have three sponsoring clergy, and women and laity were spurned. As for starting as a monastery, that would require either an exclaustrated religious sister on leave-of-absence or women with a cottage industry. The stories are all different, but there are foundational common threads. Blessings, Gemma Edited November 8, 2012 by Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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