Soul Sleep

[Katholikos]

[b]Lumberjack writes on another thread (A question for separated brethren): [/b]

[b]QUOTE[/b]
[color=red]okay, to get this out of the way quickly, I hope, let me ask this...are the brethren that have gone on and died before us "asleep" as the Bible says, or are they in heaven, till Christ's second coming(the rapture for us prots)?

"and those who sleep in Christ shall be raised first...." (I'll look it up if you wants)[/color]

Has lumberjack ever told us which one of the thousands of Protestant "churches" he belongs to? He may be referring here to "Soul Sleep."

Soul Sleep is the idea that when we die, our souls "fall asleep" -- a sort of suspended animation -- until the end of the world when Christ will come again and we are resurrected. Various denominations have different understandings about exactly how soul sleep works, but in practical terms it would mean that the dead are not conscious in any way, and therefore that there are no saints in heaven who can intercede on our behalf.

Comments?

Ave Cor Mariae, Jay (Likos)

[Ellenita]

Oooh...when I was a protestant, I never understood that verse to mean 'soul sleep' - in fact that's a new concept to me! I thought that everyone (who was a 'born again believer' ) 'went to heaven' and the verse referred specifically to a bodily resurrection during the second coming. No worries about purgatory in that concept either!

Of course I have since learnt that personal interpretation of bible verses leads only to another denomination!

What is the context of the verse in relation to church tradition and teaching?

[Anna]

Soul Sleep???????

Sounds very strannnnnnnnnnge.

Those who sleep in Christ, meaning those who have lived in Christ and died in Christ.

They may be in heaven, or I suppose this reference could also refer to those souls detained in purgatory. But they are the souls of deceased Christians, whose physical bodies will be raised up and united to their souls after Christ's second coming....

Correct me if I messed up folks!

Pax Christi.

[Ellenita]

Anna, that sound very similiar to what I said - does this mean that there is agreement between some protestant churches and the catholic church concerning this?

What protestant church teaches the 'soul sleep' concept?

[Katholikos]

I offer the following for those who may not be familiar with "Soul Sleep." No doctrine is too bizarre not to be "found" by someone interpreting the Scriptures for himself, without the guidance of the Church Christ founded.

From a Protestant website [brackets added by me]:

Psychopannychy, or soul sleep, is the doctrine that the soul sleeps between death and resurrection. It has been held sporadically in the [color=blue][Protestant] [/color]church [color=blue][by various sects][/color]. It is not a heresy in the narrower sense, due to the paucity of Scripture teaching on the intermediate state [color=blue][of course, it's heresy!][/color], but it may be called a doctrinal aberration [color=blue][heresy by any other name is still heresy!][/color] . Some Anabaptists endorsed it. In the Forty-two Articles of Edward VI, which preceded the Thirty-nine Articles, the following statement, as the Fortieth Article, was included: "They which say that the souls of those who depart hence do sleep being without all sense, feeling or perceiving till the Day of Judgment, do utterly dissent from the right belief disclosed to us in Holy Scripture."

The case for soul sleep rests principally on these considerations: (1) Human existence demands the unity of soul and body. If the body ceases to function, so must the soul. (2) The use of the term "sleep" in Scripture for death is alleged to point to the cessation of consciousness. (3) A state of consciousness between death and resurrection, characterized by bliss or woe, unwarrantably anticipates the judgment of the last day, when the basis for these experiences provided.

On the contrary view, while the normal state of man is admittedly a union of soul and body, the possibility of disembodied conscious existence is firmly held, both on the analogy of God's existence as pure spirit (man being made in his image) and on the basis of such passages as Heb. 12:23 and Rev. 6:9-11. As to the word "sleep," it is intended to apply to the body, even though the individual as such may be said to sleep in death. This is clear from Matt. 27:52; John 11:11; Acts 13:36, etc. On the third point it may be replied that the exclusion of the possibility of bliss or woe from the intermediate state, on the ground that the divine judgment which justifies such reactions will not yet have been pronounced, would logically rule out the joyful assurance of salvation in this life as well as the foreboding of judgment to come. But see John 5:24; Phil. 1:28.

Continuing consciousness after death seems to be a necessary (rather than an accidental) element in Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus, and also in our Lord's promise to the dying thief. The clearest and strongest passages, however, are in Paul's writings (Phil. 1:23; II Cor. 5:8). If it be contended in the case of the former passage that the sleep of the soul so effectually erases the interval between death and resurrection that the prospect of being with Christ, even though actually long delayed, could produce joyful anticipation, in any event the same thing can hardly be said for the second passage, where not only the resurrection body but the intermediate state is directly contemplated, being a less desirable alternative than the change to the resurrection body without death (vs. 4).

E F Harrison
(Elwell Evangelical Dictionary)

Bibliography
J. Calvin, Psychopannychia; O. Cullmann, Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead? E. Lewis, Christ, the First Fruits; R. Whately, A view of the Scripture Revelations concerning a Future State.


From: [url="http://mb-soft.com/believe/txw/soulslee.htm"]http://mb-soft.com/believe/txw/soulslee.htm[/url]

[phatcatholic]

"soul sleep" is a seventh-day adventist belief, i know that much.

from the reference section:

[i]Refuting Soul Sleep[/i]
--[url="http://web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/soulslep.htm"]The Bible Disproves Soul Sleep[/url]
--[url="http://hometown.aol.com/philvaz/articles/num10.htm"]Examination of Conditional Immortality, "Soul Sleep" and "Annihilationism"[/url]
--[url="http://home.global.co.za/~skorsman/sda/soulslp.html"]The State of the Dead: Alive in Christ, or Dead and Forgotten?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/hell.htm"]What the Hell?: The Biblical Doctrine of Everlasting Punishment for the Wicked[/url]
--[url="http://www.ratzlaf.com/Dale%20Intro.pdf"]A Dead Doctrine?[/url]
--[url="http://www.ratzlaf.com/Saul%20%26%20Samuel%20Gladson.pdf"]Rethinking Life After Death[/url]
--[url="http://www.ratzlaf.com/Streifling%20Death.pdf"]The Nature of Man and Death[/url]
--[url="http://www.ratzlaf.com/Dale%202%20Cor.pdf"]Paul and the Afterlife in [b]2 Corinthians 5:1-9[/b][/url]
--[b]note:[/b] also see the "Heaven" and "Hell" sections of the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=8020"][b][i]Last Things[/i] entry[/b][/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Katholikos]

Ellenita,

Various Anabaptists, Waldensian, and Socinian heretics defended "soul sleep" just before and during the Reformation. Calvin wrote his [i]Psychopannychia[/i] against it.

Wycliff, Tyndale, and apparently Luther early on taught soul sleep as an answer to the Catholic Church's teaching on purgatory. However, they didn't deny eternal punishment in hell.

"Soul sleep" is taught by the Seventh Day Adventists, who were founded by Ellen Harmon White in 1844. The Jehovah's Witnesses, founded by Charles Taze Russell in 1872, also teach a form of it. There are probably others.

I wonder if Lumberjack belongs to the SDA because of his reference to soul sleeping. It's a decidedly minority view -- most Christians have probably never heard of it.

Ave Cor Mariae, Jay (Likos)

[Ellenita]

Thanks Likos and Phatcatholic!

I've never thought of SDA or JWs as christians so I wouldn't have attributed 'protestant doctrine' to them!

I'm surprised to see anabaptists in the group that believes this!

[the lumberjack]

likos, I will be as nice as possible.

you [deleted for rudeness] make assumptions of my beliefs and TRIES to shove words into my posts. words that I do not imply or type. you do nothing short of making me want to leave, the way you mock me and what I believe.

I never implied that I believed in SOUL SLEEP, in your narrow clouded mind, you assume that I hold the worst of beliefs, and that I hold nothing but contempt for all Catholics.

as I've posted before, I wish nothing but God's blessings for my Catholic Brethren and Sistren. if you fail to see that, then so be it.

I was merely asking for clarification on what the Catholic Church teaches as to "those that sleep being raised first" and how that had anything to do with the occupancy of heaven....that is all.

God bless.

Edited May 24, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Ellenita' date='May 22 2004, 05:12 PM']Thanks Likos and Phatcatholic!

I've never thought of SDA or JWs as christians so I wouldn't have attributed 'protestant doctrine' to them!

I'm surprised to see anabaptists in the group that believes this![/quote]
They consider [i]themselves[/i] to be Christian

The World Christian Encyclopedia lists JW's, Mormons, Unitarians, and others as "Marginal Christians."

Seventh Day Adventists are listed in the [i]Handbook of Denominations in the United States.[/i] There are some Seventh Day Baptist groups.

There have been several groups of Anabaptists over time with really quirky beliefs. One practiced "Christian polygyny"!

All very biblical, of course.

JMJ Likos

[Ellenita]

[quote]They consider themselves to be christian[/quote]

Yes, although there are major problems with their understanding of the Trinity and wasn't there some issue about them denying the divinity of Jesus too? If my memory serves me correct, none of the protestant churches I used to attend would call them christian on the basis of that...they were very much seen as a cult or a sect........

.......now that I think about that, there's a certain irony in that line of thought!!!!


Please don't tell me there are Seventh Day Baptists......I can't imagine how SDA and Baptists came to split off from their original protestant groups and decided that they had so much in common with each other that they would form a new denomination....

[Katholikos]

Lumberjack, here again are your words:

[color=blue]Okay, to get this out of the way quickly, I hope, let me ask this...are the brethren that have gone on and died before us "asleep" as the Bible says, or are they in heaven, till Christ's second coming(the rapture for us prots)?[/color]

That's a classic description of soul sleep.

soul sleep vs. immortal soul

soul sleep vs. immediate judgment followed by purgatory and heaven, or hell

I'll break it down:

"are the brethren that have gone on and died before us "asleep" as the
Bible says . . ." (soul sleep)

[u]"[color=red]OR[/color] are they in heaven"[/u] (immortal soul, where they remain . . .)

. . . "till Christ's second coming.

So, you posit that the souls are either "asleep" [color=red][b][i]OR[/i][/b][/color] in heaven (or hell).

If you weren't referring to soul sleep, then what do your words mean? What does a soul do, where does it go, what does it experience while it is "asleep," according to your belief?

Christian doctrine for 2,000 years has been that [b]immediately[/b] after "death" our souls undergo the Particular Judgment. The Judgment determines whether we merit our soul entering into purgatory preparatory to heaven, directly into heaven, or whether we merit hell. At the Second Coming, our souls will experience the General Judgment and the Resurrection of the Body.

Perhaps you miswrote?

I know you don't like my questions; you seem unable to answer them. I am always courteous to you, even when you are discourteous and hostile. This is the debate forum. You ask questions, I answer. I ask questions, you ignore them.

Peace be to you and to all.

JMJ Likos

[Anna]

Lumberjack,

Maybe you could tell us your denomination and describe some of its beliefs.

Just today when reading through some threads, I saw an instance where you took Likos' words completely out of context and twisted them to mean something entirely other than what he'd said...I remember thinking, "Wow, how'd he get [i]that?![/i] What a stretch..." But I said nothing. Now, I see you're posting, accusing Likos of doing the same thing...

Don't be angry at Likos, just because he's far more experienced than you. He's far more intelligent and learned than many here, age and health notwithstanding.

(P.S. We Catholics honor our elders and see suffering as a great spiritual benefit, both to the sufferer and to the sinful world. Your cutting remarks weren't appreciated.)

Pax Christi.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Ellenita' date='May 22 2004, 06:04 PM']
Yes, although there are major problems with their understanding of the Trinity and wasn't there some issue about them denying the divinity of Jesus too? If my memory serves me correct, none of the protestant churches I used to attend would call them christian on the basis of that...they were very much seen as a cult or a sect........

.......now that I think about that, there's a certain irony in that line of thought!!!!


Please don't tell me there are Seventh Day Baptists......I can't imagine how SDA and Baptists came to split off from their original protestant groups and decided that they had so much in common with each other that they would form a new denomination.... [/quote]
Ellenita,

Seventh Day Baptists adhere to the seventh day (Saturday) as the sabbath. The U.S. branch derived from the Sabbitarian Baptists of England. Under the leadership of one Stephen Mumford, a group formed in the colony of Rhode Island in 1671 of those who had withdrawn from "Doctor John Clarke's (Baptist) Church under the sabbath persuasion."

One of their beliefs (of course) is that every person has the right to interpret the Bible "for himself under God."

The "once-for-all" Revelation of God in Jesus Christ to the Apostles, through the Church, is totally disregarded (Jude 3). Sola Scriptura and private interpretation of the Scriptures make "Revelation" meaningless.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[Katholikos]

Anna, You are a :queen:



:tiphat:

[Katholikos]

Lumberjack wrote in a previous post on this thread:

[color=blue]"you are an ill old man that makes assumptions of my beliefs and TRIES to shove words into my posts. words that I do not imply or type. you do nothing short of making me want to leave, the way you mock me and what I believe."[/color]

Wrong. [i][color=red]I[/color][/i] don't "make you want to leave." What you mean is, that your reaction to my challenging posts triggers your flight response.

You misjudge me; I mock no one. I make an assumption that you write what you believe and believe what you write. I take you at your word. Have I ever misquoted you? Uh, uh.

I found this quote (above) amusing. Since I've never written to you personally or shared any personal information with you, how do you know that I am ill and old? Do you have psychic powers?

I had my brain cells counted recently, and hadn't lost even one.

I have questions directed to you on several threads concerning words that you yourself have written. Please answer.

Peace to you and to all.

JMJ Likos

[mulls]

this thread seemed to start because lumberjack asked a question.

it's a question becuause it ended with one of these ---> ?


why couldn't anyone just answer it and be done with it already instead of turning this into another bashing thread?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 24 2004, 10:24 AM'] this thread seemed to start because lumberjack asked a question.

it's a question becuause it ended with one of these --->  ?


why couldn't anyone just answer it and be done with it already instead of turning this into another bashing thread? [/quote]
I did (answered it ) go look in the other thread where it's at! Other people did as well!

Pax
Jason

[jasJis]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 24 2004, 10:24 AM'] this thread seemed to start because lumberjack asked a question.

it's a question becuause it ended with one of these ---> ?


why couldn't anyone just answer it and be done with it already instead of turning this into another bashing thread? [/quote]
Good point that has been made before over the years here at PhatMass. Please consider that we all have unique personalities and idiosyncracies. Some people bash, some people seem like they bash, some seem like they give marshmallow answers with no form or substance, and some seem to hit a bulls-eye.

Some may take lumberjack's questions as needling, as baiting, as a challenge to the Church, as a challeng to personal faith, as a simple question, or maybe as a grace induced opportunity to deepen their own faith.

It's not always easy to be patient with each other or with ourselves. You will find that some people seem easier to communicate with. You remember Raven, the wiccan, don't you? How come she could talk at length with Don John and others seemed to go off the deep-end if the conversation got serious?

[jasJis]

[quote name='lumberjack'][color=red]okay, to get this out of the way quickly, I hope, let me ask this...are the brethren that have gone on and died before us "asleep" as the Bible says, or are they in heaven, till Christ's second coming(the rapture for us prots)?

"and those who sleep in Christ shall be raised first...." (I'll look it up if you wants)[/color][/quote]The short answer to the best of my memory from gradeschool many years ago is the souls are in heaven (or going through purgation) if they are 'asleep' in Christ. In the Second Coming, they will recieve their glorified bodies.
Catholics don't fret too much about the Second Coming or Rapture, etc. We keep in mind that we all will die, we all will judge, and just like the brides maids waiting for the wedding party, we must keep our lamps filled with oil and the wicks ready to light. Why even think about WHEN after Jesus tells us it's not ours to know and we each personally should be always ready.
edit to add link to the Catechism. Ask more questions after you check it out.
[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1042"]Catechism regarding Final Judgement[/url]

Edited May 24, 2004 by jasJis