Soul Sleep

[Katholikos]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 24 2004, 10:24 AM']this thread seemed to start because lumberjack asked a question.

it's a question becuause it ended with one of these --->  ?


why couldn't anyone just answer it and be done with it already instead of turning this into another bashing thread?[/quote]
Mulls, for a question to be adequately answered, it first has to be understood.

Lumberjack asked whether "souls are asleep as the Bible says" [color=red]OR[/color] "are they in heaven" (or hell).

This question, as written, is about "soul sleep," a doctrine held by some Protestants, in contrast to the orthodox Catholic doctrine of the immortal soul, which is shared by other Protestants.

But one must know what a question means before it can be answered.

I started this thread to make those who do not know about "soul sleep" become aware of it.

Most Catholics are unfamiliar with the doctrine of "soul sleep." Most Protestants -- except Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and a few others -- also have never heard of it. It's the result of private interpretation of Scripture, one of the legacies of Sola Scriptura.

Lumberjack, typically, has still not answered my question of what he believes happens to souls that don't go to either heaven or hell after passing from this life, but are "asleep" until the end of the world.

This is an educational thread, not a bashing thread, and it has nothing to do with any of the motives that have been suggested by others. I'm just trying to ensure that everyone understands the implications of the question Lumberjack asked.

JMJ Likos

[the lumberjack]

Likos, I don't answer it because I'm still learning about it myself.

are our souls in heaven? and our bodies in the ground?

why does 1 Thessalonians 4 give an account of the dead in Christ being CAUGHT UP first... not figuratively up...its very clear its not figurative or symbolic. and no, this is not my personal private interpretation...its from the Latin Vulgate.

if so, then what does it matter if our bodies are in the ground, we will most undoubtedly be worm food...

if our bodies do matter, then what of those of us that get cremated? will we not be caught up?

this is part of what I need to know about, and why I say it has something to do with Christ 2nd coming/the rapture(not the 2nd coming) for us prots.

this is what I'm trying to learn...and why I don't answer, because I don't know yet.

God bless.

[Guest AloysiusGhost]

our bodies will be resurected.

ppl used to get cremated in order to disrespect the Christian Doctrine of the Ressurection of the body, and the Church banned it. but now, it is permissable so long as you do not do it in order to deny the resurection of the body.

our bodies will be raised, ressurected, glorified. All pieces will be made whole again. God can do anything, He can rebuild us, He has the technology.

[cmotherofpirl]

Soul Sleep
Question from Jeff on 12-26-2003:
When in Church history did the heresy of the soul sleeping until the General Judgement (soul sleep) pop up?
Answer by Matthew Bunson on 01-01-2004:
Soul Sleep is the erroneous belief that when someone dies they enter a sleep stage, so that when the body is put in the ground, so too is the soul. By extension of this logic, the claim is made that the soul sleeps between death and resurrection. Another view of the idea is that when a person dies his soul ceases to exist. On the final judgment day he is brought back to life and judged. Soul Sleep is not technically a heresy and is considered an error of interpretation; it is also termed a doctrinal aberration. It is often said to be supported in Scripture, by interpreting the word sleep in Scripture to connote a state of silence, inactivity, or unconsciousness for the soul. This view has always been opposed by the Church, relying upon both Scripture and Tradition. Scripture is not exact on the condition of the person between death and resurrection. However, it is apparent that a person continues in a state of self-awareness and existence after death; one can refer to Luke 16:19-31; 2Cor. 5:1-10; Phil. 1:21-23, among many other passages. Notable among the earliest opponents were: Justin Martyr, Clement, and Athenagoras

[Quietfire]

Personally, I am very pleased that the Church allows cremation.
I have always preferred that to burial in the ground, although my husband is not crazy about my decision.

Why take up space with our bodies(shells)when we are technically not here anymore? It may sound stupid to some people, but it makes sense to me.
My husband keeps telling me that its wrong to be cremated. The whole "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" thing.
I respond with, "what part of 'ashes to ashes' dont you understand?

Peace.

Edited May 24, 2004 by Quietfire

[Quietfire]

This is definitely Jehovah's Witnesses' views....(I know this personally)

[quote]Another view of the idea is that when a person dies his soul ceases to exist.[/quote]

The only problem with that is ceases means to stop. A soul is not 'matter', its spirit, and thereby cannot cease. It does not occupy space. It is limited compared to God, but is still spirit.
A body can cease, not a soul.
1. to come to an end.
2. to stop performing an activity or action.

[quote]On the final judgment day he is brought back to life and judged.[/quote]

which would make this moot. Since the soul never ceased in the first place.

That one ticked the JW's off something fierce.



Peace.
Oh, and I am not claiming that anyone here believes this, I just wanted to point out how some think.

Love to all.

Edited May 24, 2004 by Quietfire

[jasJis]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 24 2004, 01:55 PM'] are our souls in heaven? and our bodies in the ground?

----

if so, then what does it matter if our bodies are in the ground, we will most undoubtedly be worm food...

if our bodies do matter, then what of those of us that get cremated? will we not be caught up?

this is part of what I need to know about, and why I say it has something to do with Christ 2nd coming/the rapture(not the 2nd coming) for us prots.

this is what I'm trying to learn...and why I don't answer, because I don't know yet.

God bless. [/quote]
Souls are in heaven, bodies in the ground.

It doesn't matter if we are cremated or not. Decomposing is just as destructive and is it really much of a challenge to God to re-create our Bodies? Especially when you consider He created EVERYTHING in the first place and we are going to have Glorified bodies anyway.

At one time the Church frowned on cremation because it was being done with a societal attitude that once we are dead, are bodies are meaningless and we aren't going to be resurrected. Cremation is fine for Catholics if we also remember God will still ressurect us with Glorified Bodies.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 24 2004, 02:35 PM'] Soul Sleep is not technically a heresy and is considered an error of interpretation; it is also termed a doctrinal aberration. It is often said to be supported in Scripture, by interpreting the word sleep in Scripture to connote a state of silence, inactivity, or unconsciousness for the soul. This view has always been opposed by the Church, relying upon both Scripture and Tradition. Scripture is not exact on the condition of the person between death and resurrection. However, it is apparent that a person continues in a state of self-awareness and existence after death; one can refer to Luke 16:19-31; 2Cor. 5:1-10; Phil. 1:21-23, among many other passages. Notable among the earliest opponents were: Justin Martyr, Clement, and Athenagoras [/quote]
Matthew appears to have taken at least part of his answer from the same Protestant website I quoted -- ????

How is soul sleep not a heresy when, as Matthew says, the Church has always opposed it?

Just a comment -- I'm not asking you to answer, Cmom. Thanks for your input.

JMJ Likos

[dUSt]

"Soul Sleep" sounds like a non-Catholic version of Purgatory. lol

I was confused about this belief when I attended the funeral service of my grandfather-in-law, Cecil. He wasn't Catholic, and the pastor was preaching during the funeral, saying stuff like how Cecil wasn't in Heaven yet, and how Cecil couldn't hear us right now, but on the last day we'd all be in Heaven together... Is this the same concept?

It's weird, because despite that belief shared by the pastor, most of the friends and family members (who attended that same church with that same pastor), were consoling my wife and family, with comments such as, "Cecil's looking down from heaven right now" and "he's in a better place now"... I was so confused.

[cmotherofpirl]

You got it right Dust

[Guest Holmesfan]

Hi Everyone,

Looking for a detailed response to this article on soul sleep:

www.tektonics.org/qt/sleepy.html


Thanks and God bless!

In Christ,
Andy (Protestant considering converting to Catholicism)