Regarding Leaving Communities

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='StClare_OraProNobis' timestamp='1352607044' post='2508016']
Sometimes I still feel like God Himself rejected me. I became sick and needed to leave. It is hard to accept that I am not called to be His bride....None the less, I am doing better these days in accepting it.
[/quote]

Praying for you ... it's taken a long time to get to where I am about the community I entered. And I at times still blame God for what happened, and at times still feel as though He rejected me.

The honest truth is -- no, He hasn't rejected you, and He still has a wonderful and glorious plan for your life.

MarysLitteFlower -- this is a good topic, but one thing I need to say is that everyone's experience is different. You really, really won't know what religious life is like until you enter. So -- my only advice is if you feel drawn to a community, and both you and the community discern that you may be called there, then take a chance and enter.

[StClare_OraProNobis]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1352409806' post='2506653']
Where ever you are at the present moment, it is because God wants you there. Simple as that. For those who've entered even more than once and found ourselves out in the world after a few years or more, its simply because we are resigned to follow God where ever HE leads... entering wasn't a "mistake" and there are no "what ifs"--- it is what it is. I entered because God wanted me to, He wanted me there in the convent and then HE wanted me outta there. Everyone's journey is unique and not everyone is going to have the same experiences. For me, it was extremely difficult and a painful experience the first time. When I entered a second time and left, it was less difficult. I call it "growth." I am very much at peace where I am right now. God is good, and He never leaves me. Where ever I go, He leads ...
[/quote]


Yes! I agree with this! One thing that has made leaving difficult for me was the emphasis in prayer and formation on "perseverance" in the convent. When I left I felt like an utter failure. Yet the Lord is showing me that the key is not perseverance in that particular vocation but rather perseverance in HIS WILL that matters!

[StClare_OraProNobis]

Thank you for your posts, Nunsense and CMariaDiaz!

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='carmenchristi' timestamp='1352534272' post='2507647']
I wasn't in for quite a decade, but close. Many of my sisters who also left were in for 15-20 years. Not that I believe God often calls people to leave after that amount of time, but in this case at least I really admire them, because for many it was a courageous thing to do. Also in this sort of situation there is the "shame" that one faces when it would appear to many that one has "looked back".
It can be a sensitive subject. I myself had to tell my family to please stop introducing me to people as the daughter ex-nun returned from the dead... I mean Italy.
It's still hard to enter new situations without people finding out because they want to know what I have done since finishing high school...
Anyway, sorry for venting online topics like these always make me realize that there is still a lot of healing that has to happen. I guess it's a good thing because otherwise I concentrate on the positive ( which is good!) but forget (because I don't want to think about) what still needs to be resolved. Prayers for me please!
[/quote]

It really is understandable. I only understand a small fraction and I know it painful. Be gentle on yourself, and give yourself times. (You know you would say the same thing to anyone )

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='StClare_OraProNobis' timestamp='1352607044' post='2508016']
Sometimes I still feel like God Himself rejected me. I became sick and needed to leave. It is hard to accept that I am not called to be His bride....None the less, I am doing better these days in accepting it.

Sometimes I still feel like God Himself rejected me. I became sick and needed to leave. It is hard to accept that I am not called to be His bride....None the less, I am doing better these days in accepting it.
[/quote]

I have nothing of substance to add, but just to tell you I will be praying for you. And echo everyone else, that God has not rejected you but I am sorry it feels that way right now.

[Gabriela]

I can see the sense in the sentiment that "wherever you are, it's because God wants you there", but at the same time, it seems to me that it implies we can never go wrong, that we can't stray from His path or ignore His will. But I think we can. I spent most of my life in non-Christian religions, and I still wonder all the time: Was I really following God's will, or was I stubbornly pursuing my own and just telling myself that it was His? I can see some reasons why He might have dragged me through the path I went down, but then, He turns everything into good. So it's possible, I think, that a person can in fact be NOT doing God's will, but in His infinite love, He will still work with that. It's hard for me to accept that God wanted me to be slandering His son in anti-Christian circles—but that's where I was for a long time, [i]because I thought it was His will[/i].

It makes me wonder: Since God is outside of time, is it no matter to Him that we come to faith only late in our life? Or does He really want us following Christ from our very first steps as toddlers? Could it possibly be His will that we should wander through foreign religions in order to find Him? That's saying that God wants us to sin so that our conversion experiences will be that much greater.

Basically, I find this a much more mysterious topic than it's looking like so far in this thread, because it's hard for me to imagine that He wanted me in the places I was. And if that could be true in my case, then I think it could be true in others. I [i]thought[/i] I was doing His will, but sometimes it's easy to confuse His will with one's own... I think there are some things we won't know for sure until we see Him face to face. The best we can do, I guess, is to try to follow what we feel pretty sure is His will, to have good intentions and keep listening, and to let Him do the rest. Cuz we at least know for sure that He'll turn everything to good. :-)

Edited November 12, 2012 by curiousing

[cmaD2006]

Curiosing:

It is possible to think you're doing His will by really doing your own ... I think good intentions are key though. And I kind of agree -- it is a bit more than "wherever you are, it is because God wants you there."

Sometimes humans get in the way because of their sin. He gives us free will ... and we decide to do good or evil. And yes -- even in convents. So -- there are cases where a person has to leave (by choosing or not) because of sinfulness, sometimes even on the part of a professed sister.

I cannot 100% believe that in a case where bad/evil occured that "that's what God wanted" or that "God did not want you there." I can go with however "that was allowed by God and good will come of it."

It is a subtlety. But an important one -- because God never wants something that is bad or hurtful for us (He is not a God of evil) but He does allow it.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1352695252' post='2508468']
I can see the sense in the sentiment that "wherever you are, it's because God wants you there", but at the same time, it seems to me that it implies we can never go wrong, that we can't stray from His path or ignore His will. But I think we can. I spent most of my life in non-Christian religions, and I still wonder all the time: Was I really following God's will, or was I stubbornly pursuing my own and just telling myself that it was His? I can see some reasons why He might have dragged me through the path I went down, but then, He turns everything into good. So it's possible, I think, that a person can in fact be NOT doing God's will, but in His infinite love, He will still work with that. It's hard for me to accept that God wanted me to be slandering His son in anti-Christian circles—but that's where I was for a long time, [i]because I thought it was His will[/i].

It makes me wonder: Since God is outside of time, is it no matter to Him that we come to faith only late in our life? Or does He really want us following Christ from our very first steps as toddlers? Could it possibly be His will that we should wander through foreign religions in order to find Him? That's saying that God wants us to sin so that our conversion experiences will be that much greater.

Basically, I find this a much more mysterious topic than it's looking like so far in this thread, because it's hard for me to imagine that He wanted me in the places I was. And if that could be true in my case, then I think it could be true in others. I [i]thought[/i] I was doing His will, but sometimes it's easy to confuse His will with one's own... I think there are some things we won't know for sure until we see Him face to face. The best we can do, I guess, is to try to follow what we feel pretty sure is His will, to have good intentions and keep listening, and to let Him do the rest. Cuz we at least know for sure that He'll turn everything to good. :-)
[/quote]


I tend to agree with you here.I am a bit hesitant to say that God wants everything that happens to us but I do believe that He can turn all to our good if we allow Him to do so by trusting in Him and contuing to walk towards Him.

I have made many mistakes in my discernment and although He has used every situation for my good, that doesn't mean it wouldn't have been better for me to have done things differently in the past.

The main point is not to beat ourselves up over our mistakes but just like the just man who falls seven times a day, we get up, brush ourselves off, trust in God and keeping moving forward. Can a vocation be lost? Perhaps, but does that really matter? We can't go back and change a single second of the past. We can and should examine how we are living our lives now and try to align them with God's will for us now, not what it 'might' have been in the past. He forgives and He works with us where we are. He also knows that we are weak and need His help in all things. I am sorry that I made mistakes, but I use them to help me avoid them now.

In the end, it's about love. Our love for Him and His love for us. Everything else is designed to help us remember that.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1352695252' post='2508468']
I can see the sense in the sentiment that "wherever you are, it's because God wants you there", but at the same time, it seems to me that it implies we can never go wrong, that we can't stray from His path or ignore His will. But I think we can. I spent most of my life in non-Christian religions, and I still wonder all the time: Was I really following God's will, or was I stubbornly pursuing my own and just telling myself that it was His? I can see some reasons why He might have dragged me through the path I went down, but then, He turns everything into good. So it's possible, I think, that a person can in fact be NOT doing God's will, but in His infinite love, He will still work with that. It's hard for me to accept that God wanted me to be slandering His son in anti-Christian circles—but that's where I was for a long time, [i]because I thought it was His will[/i].

It makes me wonder: Since God is outside of time, is it no matter to Him that we come to faith only late in our life? Or does He really want us following Christ from our very first steps as toddlers? Could it possibly be His will that we should wander through foreign religions in order to find Him? That's saying that God wants us to sin so that our conversion experiences will be that much greater.

Basically, I find this a much more mysterious topic than it's looking like so far in this thread, because it's hard for me to imagine that He wanted me in the places I was. And if that could be true in my case, then I think it could be true in others. I [i]thought[/i] I was doing His will, but sometimes it's easy to confuse His will with one's own... I think there are some things we won't know for sure until we see Him face to face. The best we can do, I guess, is to try to follow what we feel pretty sure is His will, to have good intentions and keep listening, and to let Him do the rest. Cuz we at least know for sure that He'll turn everything to good. :-)
[/quote]

Whoooaaa- this could turn into a Jesuit vs Thomistic view of predestination. Seriously you do make valid points. It is a bit more of a mystery then we are stating. But as Nunsense says it is more about not living in the past. You cannot change the fact that you were in non-Christian religions, but you can see how God has used them for the good in your life now. If that was his will or not, in actuality is a moot point, but not what is being really discussed here. I tend to believe God led me into religious life- as there were many circumstances surrounding it that were miraculous and discernment of spirits. He lead me out for now, and I hope one day to be back in. I frequent the sacraments, have a regular prayer life, and am in a state of grace. I don't think God is going to let me wonder far from him. If we honestly pursue his will, do you think he would deny us this knowledge? Due to my selflove and baggage it may take me a little longer to see and understand his will, but he will get me there. This is my take on it anyway.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. It gave me a chance to reflect quite a bit, even though most of my thoughts I couldn't never put into words.

[nikita92]

If one has been in a community for any lenght of time....years...and then needs/have to leave it....if one has disposed of all their wordly pocessions upon entering..what does one do in order to re-enter the world (they left ) with having nothing?? If one gets serious health issues etc..doesnt your community take care of you? What happens if one has very little family on the outside? Please forgive my ignorant questions..im just looking at it from a realistic view. Thanks

[dominicansoul]

that is something I have found disappointing, that there is not a "network" so to speak, to help those who leave their communities adjust to the world again...

[Gabriela]

[quote name='nikita92' timestamp='1352774709' post='2508900']
If one has been in a community for any lenght of time....years...and then needs/have to leave it....if one has disposed of all their wordly pocessions upon entering..what does one do in order to re-enter the world (they left ) with having nothing?? If one gets serious health issues etc..doesnt your community take care of you? What happens if one has very little family on the outside? Please forgive my ignorant questions..im just looking at it from a realistic view. Thanks
[/quote]
[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1352774933' post='2508904']
that is something I have found disappointing, that there is not a "network" so to speak, to help those who leave their communities adjust to the world again...
[/quote]

There was once an organization—I believe it was in the UK or New York—that supported people leaving religious communities or the priesthood. It no longer exists.

If Phatmass is the world's largest forum for discerners, why doesn't it also become the launching pad for such an organization?

[AnneLine]

If you brought a dowry, they give it back to you. (remember the end of The Nun's Story?)

And if you didn't bring one, they are bound to give you something. BUT, something usually isn't very much, and even a few hundred or a few thousand won't go very far.

This is why many communities suggest you keep somethign of your old life until you take your vows... but that isn't much help if that point has already passed.

I was in a community for about 6 months. My mother and father were alive, but I hadn't been living with them, and I had no other support available except friends. I came out with the $350 dowery, the clothes I entered with, some of my postulant clothes. The books, sewing machine and guitar I had brought with me were returned to me next time a car traveled from where the community was to where I was (about a month later). Felt a whole lot like Maria from the Sound of Music! The Sisters did pay for an an airplane ticket, but ONLY back to where my mother was, and they required her to meet me at the airport. I had kept only a bunch of shoes (because my feet are a real odd size and it is hard to get them to fit me); I'd let go of a professional wardrobe and furnishings for an apartment. (If I had it to do over again, I think I would have 'leased' them to friends for two years... with the option to purchase for some prayers for me on the day of vows when they became their property! Only 2 people offered to return any of the things to me... one is the cross that hangs beside my front door....)

I was blessed that I did have a place to go, and that I had good secretarial skills as I could get temp work almost immediately; not everyone is so blessed....

One of the people who had been in the novitiate ahead of me had to leave because of some serious physical problems shortly after I left. Her family refused to let her stay at her home... and basically divorced her.

One of the sisters from the community whispered in my ear that X needed help when I went down for the profession of the class ahead of hers... and we exchanged phone numbers. Later, she was SUPPORTED for a few months by me, and two of my male friends (one of whom later became my husband) as she was too ill to work more than part time, and had no insurance. This is NOT an ideal way to re-adjust to life in the world....

So yeah, sometimes people who leave really DO have a very hard time. I won't minimize that. But I do think that God puts the people and necessary help in place if we trust Him with our lives. She is just fine now.. and has a lovely family.

I was and am at peace about having gone in and having come out. I am convinced that God wanted me there for just the 6 months I stayed... and that part of the reason I was there was so that eventually I could be there for the one who left. But the adjustment year was tough. Just not using the words and customs that had been drilled into us. I called more than one male attorney 'Sister' without it being noticed (thank God!). And since the Internet didn't exist, I spent hours in teh library reading Time & Newsweek so I wouldn't be totally ignorant of what had happened since I 'left'. But it all worked out....

God will help you find your way. Just take it one step at a time....

Edited November 13, 2012 by AnneLine

[maximillion]

The adjustment was hard, very hard.

I returned to England via a ferry ticket purchased by the community for me,my habit on my back and in a little suitcase, and a few hundred pounds.
Since my exclaustration was at least at first temporary, other things came on later send by the community - guitar, some books, my missal etc.
I was met by my sister and went to live with her for a few weeks. However, her house was very small and we have never been that close, so as soon as I was able I got a job in nursing, with an agency, I was at this point still in the habit.......
As soon as I had made my application for the exclaustration to be made permanent, my sister kindly made some clothes for me ( I have to admit I insisted these were rather habit like garments!).
My hair was a problem, and for a year I kept it covered, it was in terrible condition and was very very thin on top where the weight of the veil etc had constantly rubbed. Even now I like to cover my head, but this is more a modesty thing.

The hardest was the speed of the traffic. I was TERRIFIED crossing roads. Of course it was a mis-perception that things went faster, it was simply that I was unused to dealing with traffic.
There were other difficulties, tax, national health insurance contributions, I was questioned and cross questioned in a not very nice way by various people in officialdom who simply had never come across someone who had lived in a cloister in a different country for 14 years.......I had no proof of taxes having been paid in the 14 years before I got my new job in nursing and I think I was simply not believed. Getting documents from the community in support of my position and my assertions took forever and they were in French. I think some people could cope with my having been a nun in France, but not that I had not been in any paid employment in all that time.

In all it all took just over two years to sort out, and that was not the end of the story. My current pension situation is difficult because of the 14 years when no contributions were made. This is something to think about if you enter in a different country..............

[AnneLine]

Maximillion,

Thank you for your sharing; it couldn't have been easy.... either at the time, or even to share with us.

Having said what I did, I also want to share this; every year we get people who try their vocations in my Secular order. Every one of them comes with the best of good will and eagerness... and a certain percentage will give the life a try (with full intention of going all the way....) and find that God wants something different. I know I always do everything in my power to help those who rrealize that God is not calling them to be with us to have a plan for what God wants next... what they learned, what they need that we didn't offer... what they don't need that we do require. That is just good formation work...

I think communities today FOR THE MOST PART are much better about helping people make the transition in and out. And I think the world and our families and friends are more open to people who realize God wants something different.

I have written as PMs to some details of my own decision, and I don't want to discuss the whole thing on line. BUT I will say this; I think the story of St. Francis (especially as described in the beautiful book [i]The Perfect Joy of St. Francis[/i]) gave me the inspiration to really evaluate what God did -- and did not -- want from and for me. I think I had pre-determined that the ONLY way I could see living my life out for Him was as a consecrated religious... and I wanted a very traditional community. And found one. And loved many things about it. But I realized the longer I stayed that the structure was not a good fit for me. My body was getting tenser and tenser. I was more and more unsure about the style of the community... even though I had NOT been surprised by what I found--it was exactly what I had expected. What was a surprise for ME was that I couldn't live that lifestyle. It was not a good fit for me... and no matter how hard I tried, it was less and less do-able all the time.

That is probably why the retelling of the story of St. Francis volunteering to go off to war in the wake of a dream.... a dream in which he saw armor and swords and all manner of soldierly paraphenalia... and a young girl telling him that these were for him and his followers... of COURSE he ran off to join the army! Of course he believed tht God was telling him to join the military campaign that was being organized! The problem was, it wasn't what God wanted from him. And so a few days later, when the same young girl from the dream re-surfaced in his dream and asked, "Which is better... to follow the servant or the master?" Francis responde, 'The Master'... She then said, "you have misunderstood the dream; go back." Even though he knew he would face contempt and ridicule, Francis returned to Assisi... because he knew he had not NOT heard God's call... he had misunderstood. And he needed to go where God was leading him.

As I prayed over that story, I too realized that I had misunderstood what God wanted from me. It wasn't that I hadn't HEARD him; I had misunderstood what He wanted. And when both my superiors and I prayed about it, we realized that that was exactly going on. I had to return and pick up where I had left off... recapture what God really did want from me. Was it easy? No. Would I go back... probably not because now I udnerstand the whys.... and what God actually had in mind... and it is better. Not easy, but better.

So.... I will say to all of you who feel God calling, don't be afraid to respond in love. Listen carefully, and be sure you are listening to Him, not just to your own desires and hopes. But trust that The One who is pure love and wisdom Knows what is best and that it will work out in the end.

My 2 cents.