Regarding Leaving Communities

[BarbTherese]

I had a similar experience as CherieMadam. It seems to me that saying goodbye to a fellow sister would be probably just as unsettling as to suddenly find her missing.
I think it would be appropriate to ask before entering what process is involved if one decided to leave.

Edited November 15, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[arfink]

Leaving a religious community or seminary or what have you is really hard. I know that first hand as well, from when I left seminary. It's often handled very badly both by the person leaving and the community. It happens. Some places are worse about it than others. The seminary I was at had a bad track record for that, and I know several men who wound up very deeply wounded leaving that particular place. There was no preparation for leaving like there was for going in, and you could see the seminary was leaving these guys in a world of hurt, emotionally, educationally, and financially.

Was it a risk to enter seminary? Yes. Did I know it was a risk going in? Yes. Would I do it again? That I don't know.

A vocation is a tricky thing, and I'm sure it's possible to "wreck" one. But I don't believe the Lord's will is deterministic. He is outside of time in ways we cannot fathom because we are inside it. At all times, and in every moment, He is there. In every decision we have the ability to love and to serve or not to do so. The decisions that I made which led me to seminary were the best fit I could find at the time for following His will, and right now my conscience leads me to believe that I would have a harder time loving and serving the Lord if I go back to a seminary. That's what discernment is largely about, from my perspective.

Edited November 15, 2012 by arfink

[Cherie]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1352951104' post='2510313']
It seems to me that saying goodbye to a fellow sister would be probably just as unsettling as to suddenly find her missing.
[/quote]

This is why I don't really hold it against the community; any way you do it, it's either awkward, or unsettling, etc. I would have preferred at least having permission to tell the Sisters I was closest to privately, but that wasn't allowed. And honestly, leaving is hard for all involved, no matter how you do it. That's why one enters with the [i]intention[/i] of persevering, I suppose!

[MarieLynn]

My experience dated back to 1969, when things were quite different to how they are today in many communities.
Sisters who "went out" were regarded as failures. Before I left, when one of the group disappeared and we were told that "Sister X has returned to the world", Mother also added a comment about the Sister, such as - "she did not have the generosity to continue in her true vocation". I thought that bit was quite unnecessary. I wonder what was said about me? .

I was reminded that I was under strict obedience not to reveal to anyone that I was leaving, and Mother also told me that I would never be permitted to return, should I have a change of heart, nor would I be permitted to enter another Order.

When I returned to my hometown, the Order that I had been part of for 6 yrs, refused any contact, and quite literally, I was disowned.

Thankfully, in the majority of cases that mind-set has ceased to exist, and sisters who return home these days, are given as much help as they need, both practical and spiritual to enable them to get back on their feet.

I would hate anyone to be put off by my experiences, but in the 'bad old days', and I say that with my tongue in cheek, that was the way it was. It depended on the community and how they dealt with sisters who wanted to leave for whatever reason, as to how the Sister was treated at the time.

I am no longer hurt, or angry, as I once was. Now I look back and say I am a stronger person having been through it all. !!!

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1352953730' post='2510345']
This is why I don't really hold it against the community; any way you do it, it's either awkward, or unsettling, etc. I would have preferred at least having permission to tell the Sisters I was closest to privately, but that wasn't allowed. And honestly, leaving is hard for all involved, no matter how you do it. That's why one enters with the [i]intention[/i] of persevering, I suppose!
[/quote]

As far as I personally was concerned, I would have preferred to have been able to say goodbye and also not to have left in an almost clandestine manner. I think one certainly does have every intention of facing difficulties and persevering without really being aware of the actual difficulties one is going to have to face and one can only 'play the cards in one's hand'. In other words, the difficulties are not necessarily at all those anticipated even remotely, nor is the disposition of oneself at the time anticipated - including possibly the dispositions of others closely connected. And finally, one needs discern God's Will in it all.
I know of one person who left religious life and it was almost a celebration before she did leave. Her decision was out in the open and everyone had the opportunity to wish her well in every way and in a relaxed informal atmosphere as well as praying for her as a community including at her last Mass in religious life. I think probably the community did miss her presence and she certainly missed them but there was a sense of 'closure' for them all. A sense that God's Will was being accomplished and would be accomplished in the journey ahead for all and in all that unfolded - and not a cause for anything hidden or secretive. Personally, I think that this was the ideal way of going about it all and certainly theologically accurate.
It can be forgotten that up to Final Profession, it is a journey of discernment for leadership, community and the individual. This being so, a decision to leave after prayer, due consulation and advice, cannot be in any way a matter for the hidden and secretive - any sort of disgrace. And finally religious life -and not only religious life - is primarily an embracing of The Cross, a detaching from self in some way, and in whatever form it may take or Divine Providence ordains rather.

It is bitter sweet when a person leaves and all share in that bitter sweet.

Edited November 15, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[StClare_OraProNobis]

I was allowed to say "goodbye" and to keep in touch after, which I think was a very healthy thing. I am grateful for this.

I personally hate the word "persevere" when related to religious life, especially before final vows. Leaving religious life was a NOT a failure to "persevere" on my part. Had I failed to "persevere" I would not be here today. We are to persevere in the WILL OF GOD, wherever that leads. Even though I would not wish my experience on my worst enemy, at least now I am reaching some level of peace.

[carmenchristi]

Gosh... If I wasn't allowed to tell the sisters I was leaving, I would have done it anyway... But I guess part of my leaving had to do with not wanting to do absurd things just because I was told to do them.

[Cherie]

[quote name='StClare_OraProNobis' timestamp='1352988431' post='2510498']
I was allowed to say "goodbye" and to keep in touch after, which I think was a very healthy thing. I am grateful for this.

I personally hate the word "persevere" when related to religious life, especially before final vows. Leaving religious life was a NOT a failure to "persevere" on my part. Had I failed to "persevere" I would not be here today. We are to persevere in the WILL OF GOD, wherever that leads. Even though I would not wish my experience on my worst enemy, at least now I am reaching some level of peace.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to touch a nerve. I didn't realize that "persevering" was a loaded term, I simply used it because that's the way most religious communities describe it. Perhaps it would have been better stated, "one enters with the intention of [i]staying with the community,"[/i] which basically simply means that you enter a community because you think you [i]do[/i] have a religious vocation (whether you really do or not). Nothing more, nothing less. Remember, I was a religious who left my community. It was extremely difficult, and I know many looked upon me as a failure, including [i]myself,[/i] so it took a long time, and much agonizing, to get where I am today. I apologize if I offended you.

[StClare_OraProNobis]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1352993619' post='2510545']

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to touch a nerve. I didn't realize that "persevering" was a loaded term, I simply used it because that's the way most religious communities describe it. Perhaps it would have been better stated, "one enters with the intention of [i]staying with the community."[/i] Remember, I was a religious who left my community. It was extremely difficult, and I know many looked upon me as a failure, including [i]myself,[/i] so it took a long time, and much agonizing, to get where I am today. I apologize if I offended you.
[/quote]


Oh, dear. I did not mean that to be pointed at you specifically! I am sorry- You did not offend me at all!

It is actually the way that this term is used within religious communities that bothers me. Especially before vows- it is a period of "testing the vocation." We prayed everyday to "persevere." It caused me a lot of pain when I left.

Peace, Cherie!

[Cherie]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1352962378' post='2510433']
I know of one person who left religious life and it was almost a celebration before she did leave. Her decision was out in the open and everyone had the opportunity to wish her well in every way and in a relaxed informal atmosphere as well as praying for her as a community including at her last Mass in religious life. I think probably the community did miss her presence and she certainly missed them but there was a sense of 'closure' for them all. A sense that God's Will was being accomplished and would be accomplished in the journey ahead for all and in all that unfolded - and not a cause for anything hidden or secretive. Personally, I think that this was the ideal way of going about it all and certainly theologically accurate.
It can be forgotten that up to Final Profession, it is a journey of discernment for leadership, community and the individual. This being so, a decision to leave after prayer, due consulation and advice, cannot be in any way a matter for the hidden and secretive - any sort of disgrace.
[/quote]

That is a good point. Personally, I think it is a much more healthy manner of doing things. You wouldn't believe the stories of the way most of the Sisters' left (including my own leaving), and how the community handled (mishandled?) it. And this is just a few years ago. But honestly, they didn't know better. They came from a community in which that was probably the way things were done at that point in time, so they were just doing what they knew. Also, not only did I think of myself as a failure, but I know my community (and my Superior) also felt themselves failures as a result of my (and many other Sisters') leaving, so I'm sure that added to the dysfunctional way things were done. Hopefully things have changed, because it needs to.

Perhaps this thread has gotten off topic a bit? It's not meant to "scare anyone off," but it does deal with the reality of religious life, which isn't always rosy, and that can be a surprise to many who enter unaware.

[dominicansoul]

I've had similar experiences. Departures are very difficult. But for the fairness of the community I had most difficulty with, I don't mention it to anyone who is discerning that community. My experiences there were mine and no others. They may enter and find that it is heaven on earth. I try my best NEVER to influence a discerner whose heart seems set on a community I've had a hard time with.

[AdvocataNostra]

Its my recent experience that the procedures of leaving religious life that Cherie mentioned are still the same, but the attitude around leaving is much different. The reason for not telling others is because its such a personal decision between God and the discerner. Talking about it with others may sway what that person decides is Gods perfect will for her.

[deusluxmea]

[quote name='AdvocataNostra' timestamp='1352996497' post='2510573']
Talking about it with others may sway what that person decides is Gods perfect will for her.
[/quote]


But what if it [u]is[/u] God's will that the person needs to hear another person is leaving? Maybe a person was having doubts/concerns and seeing another person have the strength to leave will lead them to fulfill God's will. If a person is so easily swayed, I doubt they had a strong vocation to begin with.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1352995300' post='2510559']
I've had similar experiences. Departures are very difficult. But for the fairness of the community I had most difficulty with, I don't mention it to anyone who is discerning that community. My experiences there were mine and no others. They may enter and find that it is heaven on earth. I try my best NEVER to influence a discerner whose heart seems set on a community I've had a hard time with.
[/quote]

I have decided that in my case, in the case of the 2nd community I *do* state very clearly how I perceive the community. It is a very unhealthy community, and to stay silent would be sinful. I don't necesarily say "don't enter" but I do say "um, you need to watch out."

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='StClare_OraProNobis' timestamp='1352993988' post='2510549']


Oh, dear. I did not mean that to be pointed at you specifically! I am sorry- You did not offend me at all!

It is actually the way that this term is used within religious communities that bothers me. Especially before vows- it is a period of "testing the vocation." We prayed everyday to "persevere." It caused me a lot of pain when I left.

Peace, Cherie!
[/quote]


I'm glad you posted StClare_OraProNobis. I agree too -- there needs to be care with the use of "persevere" because we are called to persevere in Sanctity, in our walk with Jesus. And we are called to discern our vocation, wherever it may lead.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1353003176' post='2510633']

I have decided that in my case, in the case of the 2nd community I *do* state very clearly how I perceive the community. It is a very unhealthy community, and to stay silent would be sinful. I don't necesarily say "don't enter" but I do say "um, you need to watch out."
[/quote]

Of course. I would speak out against such communities, too. I'm talking more or less, personal issues with a community and vice versa. If there were personality clashes and such, or you witnessed some unfairness on a small scale.. stuff that you basically find almost everywhere. I wouldn't allow my own bad time in a community to color that community in a bad way....

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1353003876' post='2510638']

Of course. I would speak out against such communities, too. I'm talking more or less, personal issues with a community and vice versa. If there were personality clashes and such, or you witnessed some unfairness on a small scale.. stuff that you basically find almost everywhere. I wouldn't allow my own bad time in a community to color that community in a bad way....
[/quote]

I agree in that case ... i.e. not to talk badly about a community due to personality clashes, etc. But -- I just wanted to make sure that there are times that it is the right thing to do to discuss problems with a community with a certain degree of openness.

What cemented this was a discussion that I had with a former member of a certain community -- when I shared about my experiences the person said "I wished someone would have spoken up sooner." Which means that we all have a responsability to speak truth when needed, and not doing so is a serious sin of omission.

Again care of course needs to be taken -- I don't know if I would do a fully public campaign against any community. But -- I have clear thoughts about certain communities (including the 2nd one I entered) and do express them when appropriate. I'm also a bit more sensitive when I run into a cult-like community because of my own experiences.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1352994232' post='2510551']
That is a good point. Personally, I think it is a much more healthy manner of doing things. You wouldn't believe the stories of the way most of the Sisters' left (including my own leaving), and how the community handled (mishandled?) it. And this is just a few years ago. But honestly, they didn't know better. They came from a community in which that was probably the way things were done at that point in time, so they were just doing what they knew. Also, not only did I think of myself as a failure, but I know my community (and my Superior) also felt themselves failures as a result of my (and many other Sisters') leaving, so I'm sure that added to the dysfunctional way things were done. Hopefully things have changed, because it needs to.

Perhaps this thread has gotten off topic a bit? It's not meant to "scare anyone off," but it does deal with the reality of religious life, which isn't always rosy, and that can be a surprise to many who enter unaware.
[/quote]

I have entered and left religious life twice - once in my teens and again in my forties. My teens would have been very shortly after V2. Both times, my leaving left me with useless baggage due to the manner of my leaving and not within my control. The useless baggage I was left with was due to things said to me by leadership and the way I was very suddenly and without warning in both cases clandestinely ushered out. By "useless baggage" I mean negative type of emotions and thinking. The reason for the latter lay with the ways things were done in both religious orders and how leadership at that time regarded those that leave. This is sad as it can take quite some time and many struggles before one is able to offload that quite useless baggage. Most all, if not all, enter with every intention of staying for the journey, but reality in one form or another intervenes and one makes a decision to leave. This should never be regarded as negative as one is doing what one feels is God's Will at that time with the lights accorded at that time. What one feels is rightful in that situation. The Love of God for all of us is absolutely boundless and all embracing and does not lessen, certainly not end, because one leaves religious life. His love simply never changes and He is the All Faithful One and to absolutely all and regardless of all things and any thing. It is very sad and theologically inaccurate when leadership in religious life does not reflect these realities towards those that do decide to leave.

It has been very heartening indeed and good to read that some have left religious life with anything but the above type of negative treatment.

These are just comments on previous posts and not directed to any member in particular and their post or posts:
"Persevere" is not an apt word used in relation to religious life. Since it does imply some sort of negativity on those who might decide to leave - a lack of perseverance, and I have even heard "lack of generosity" and "selfishness" used in connection with those that leave. We are all to some degree or other, somewhere or other, 'tarred with these brushes' - and these do not necessarily always explain the reason a person may leave and to my mind should not be used in connection with leaving. Many, if not most, have gone through an agonizing period of self examination and prayer, seeking of sound advice, and doubtless it just might be that The Lord did not intend that they should stay for the entire journey. As stated previously, it is a journey of discernment to Final Profession. There could be some sort of similarity with an engaged person deciding not to marry and such derogatory terms are not assigned to one who makes such a decision. The engagement period, as with postulancy to Final Profession, are all journeys of discernment.
Since a journey of discernment implies that one may decide for OR EQUALLY against - no reason whatsoever to make negative comments about the character of the person involved.

Edited November 16, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Duplicate Post

Edited November 16, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[To Jesus Through Mary]

I remember sitting in mothers office while all the other sisters were at sports. We had been discussing my depature for like 2 weeks. And it finally hit the fan. I sat in her office after I had spoken with my spiritual director, and I was leaving on the bus the next morning. She was surprised it happened so quickly. She offered for me to say goodbye, but thought that it would be best if I didn't. That it would be hard on my sisters to see me upset. I knew there would be no stopping the tears, as I loved and deeply longed for religious life. So that afternoon mother gave me some money for clothes, I took one of the cars and went to the store (the hardest shopping trip I have ever made). The next morning I was gone. One sister saw me in lay clothes as I was leaving. (in a house of over 20 it is hard not to run into someone!) Nothing was said I brushed out the house. The Novice Mistress said goodbye the night before and her assistant took me. I did confide in one sister previously that my time was short. And the night before she just looked in my room and my heart broke. Then I knew I made the right choice with not saying goodbye.