Did The "pro-life" Movement Permanently Change Because Of Romn

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352755705' post='2508723']

Save the liturgy, save the world.
[/quote]What do you mean?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352767336' post='2508811']
What do you mean?
[/quote]
I believe that the loss of Catholic identity is tied inextricably to our lack of traditional worship in recent decades. I believe that a re-discovery of the Church's liturgical tradition will directly lead to an increase in faith and zeal in the laity, which in turn will change how we operate in the public sphere.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352767908' post='2508820']

I believe that the loss of Catholic identity is tied inextricably to our lack of traditional worship in recent decades. I believe that a re-discovery of the Church's liturgical tradition will directly lead to an increase in faith and zeal in the laity, which in turn will change how we operate in the public sphere.
[/quote]Seriously?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352768446' post='2508832']
Seriously?
[/quote]
Have you got a problem with that?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352770476' post='2508852']

Have you got a problem with that?
[/quote]LAWL. So if the Mass click was turned back yo 1953, things would improve in society.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352771004' post='2508863']
LAWL. So if the Mass click was turned back yo 1953, things would improve in society.
[/quote]
I do not recall saying that, actually.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1352688050' post='2508394']
the prolife movement fell apart a long time ago. they have the position that to avoid abortions we need to give contraceptions. they allow arguements of abortion being illegal except for incest, rape and health of mother.

honestly and i really mean this, there is only one true pro life movement that has any and I mean any chance of success and its the catholic church. the prolife movement made up of others has failed. no absolutes. the catholic church on the other hand has absolutes and does not stray. abortion is wrong in all cases and so are contraceptives which cause abortions. the catholic church will not go down and support abortion loving politicians who are pro life in limited circumstances. they will only support the idea that life is most important and there can be no exceptions. the prolife movement made exceptions. the catholic church does not. if all truely devote catholic united together we would be the true pro life movement that could make change. although that is the only true pro life movement left... the catholic church.
[/quote]


At the same time, we cannot relegate abortion to being a "Catholic" issue. Until the nation becomes overwhelmongly practicing Catholic, we need more than just Catholics to win this battle. If we wait until the nation bacomes practicing Catholic, millions more unborn will be killed.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1352734405' post='2508589']

Still did better than Biden.

But what about the healthcare rules and such? Were they really going to be the same?

Would they make more of a different converting a few and losing to a pro-choice candidate or being a pro-life candidate who makes it to office?

[/quote]

Yes, Ryan would have been a lot better than Biden. Although VP doesn't really do much as Romney would have held all the cards....or at least most of them.

I was just pointing out that when you make your own exceptions for abortion, it becomes REALLY hard to argue against other exceptions.

In response to the last question, I think so. If you can effectively argue a message, even your loss will not really be a loss. I use Ron Paul as an example. How many victories has he had? Precious few. But look at the message that has grown from him! He lost the GOP primary, but his ideas grew the most and his message will live beyond the election unlike all the other candidates who are already largely forgotten.

[XIX]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1352773265' post='2508885']


At the same time, we cannot relegate abortion to being a "Catholic" issue. Until the nation becomes overwhelmongly practicing Catholic, we need more than just Catholics to win this battle. If we wait until the nation bacomes practicing Catholic, millions more unborn will be killed.
[/quote]
This. This so much. It shouldn't require a belief in God to understand that dismembering children is wrong.

[stevil]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1352710057' post='2508533']
ahhh I get what you mean. of course when we talk about the pro-life movement, we are obviously not talking about those people. but it is true that most people define themselves as pro-life, I saw a study in which there was a large overlap of people defining themselves as both pro-life and pro-choice; so in that sense, we've lost the terminology war.
[/quote]
Terminology war - most definately

pro-choice is pretty clear, means they don't what the law to decide for them.

pro-life is very obscure, in this context it actually means the proponents want laws to restrict choice. So it is really anti-choice.


Just because a person is pro-choice it doesn't mean they like or would participate in abortion, it just means they don't want to force others not to choose the abortion option.

[stevil]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1352773265' post='2508885']
At the same time, we cannot relegate abortion to being a "Catholic" issue. Until the nation becomes overwhelmongly practicing Catholic, we need more than just Catholics to win this battle. If we wait until the nation bacomes practicing Catholic, millions more unborn will be killed.
[/quote]
In my opinion, and I know you are going to disagree with me, but I think the approach is wrong. People don't want laws to force their hand.

Education is key, if the pro-life take the approach to educate people, try to convince them to choose the non abortion approach then they will be much more successful than trying to force a law onto people.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1352916894' post='2509902']
Just because a person is pro-choice it doesn't mean they like or would participate in abortion, it just means they don't want to force others not to choose the abortion option.
[/quote]

Nope. It means they are indifferent to whether or not a unwanted person is murdered by another person.

[stevil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1352917452' post='2509905']
Nope. It means they are indifferent to whether or not a unwanted person is murdered by another person.
[/quote]
Doesn't mean that at all.
If you try and pass a law allowing government to cull homeless people, then see what happens, what will the pro choice people do?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1352918123' post='2509914']

Doesn't mean that at all.
If you try and pass a law allowing government to cull homeless people, then see what happens, what will the pro choice people do?
[/quote]

Yes indeed it does mean that. But you do point out how these indifferent barbarians are hypocritical in their relativistic point of view on the right for innocent members of humanity to exist.

Edited November 14, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[stevil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1352918515' post='2509918']
Yes indeed it does mean that. But you do point out how these indifferent barbarians are hypocritical in their relativistic point of view on the right for innocent members of humanity to exist.
[/quote]
I see you are unwilling to understand the issue, to understand the pro choicer's point of view.

You can continue to volley for impossed law, but without trying to understand the issue (from your opponent's perspective) your cause will be futile.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1352918515' post='2509918']
Yes indeed it does mean that. But you do point out how these indifferent barbarians are hypocritical in their relativistic point of view on the right for innocent members of humanity to exist.
[/quote]It's not hypocrasy if you don't believe a zygote or fetus is a person [i]yet[/i].

Stevil has a valid point, that was brought up recently that you don't simply change the perspective of people that abortion is a viable choice when the alternatives are so bad (especially if they don't recognize personhood).

It's hypocrasy when good people shun and shame an unwed mother because it's the child who suffers most.
It's hypocrasy when it's inconceivable how a single mom can afford to give birth to an unplanned child when help is given first to anyone else.
It's hypocrasy when society doesn't shame the baby father or force financial liability.
It's also hypocrasy when people believe only the two participants deal with the consequences of consensual sex.

Possible legal foundations would be identifying personhood at conception. Giving legal protection to the unborn child that is equal to the mother. Holding the father as liable and responsible financially. Making adoptions easier. (Wouldn't it be better to let single or gay people adopt rather than killing inconvenient children?)

There's lots of attitudes to change and goals to achieve that aren't accomplished by simply outlawing abortion that support and reinforce the right to life.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1352919554' post='2509927']
I see you are unwilling to understand the issue, to understand the pro choicer's point of view.

You can continue to volley for impossed law, but without trying to understand the issue (from your opponent's perspective) your cause will be futile.
[/quote]

I understand you quite while. You are simply wrong. If one claims to be pro-choice as you define it they are indifferent. Indifferent to whether or not a unwanted person (a child) is murder by another person (the abortionist).

[stevil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1352919783' post='2509930']

I understand you quite while. You are simply wrong. If one claims to be pro-choice as you define it they are indifferent. Indifferent to whether or not a unwanted person (a child) is murder by another person (the abortionist).
[/quote]
Pro choicers aren't indifferent. They actively want people to be in control of their own lives rather than have government impose.
They respect the decisions of adults, of parents, they understand the complexities of life and society, and don't paint the world black and white.
They don't necessarily think all human life is sacred.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1352923241' post='2509965']
Pro choicers aren't indifferent. They actively want people to be in control of their own lives rather than have government impose.
They respect the decisions of adults, of parents, they understand the complexities of life and society, and don't paint the world black and white.
They don't necessarily think all human life is sacred.
[/quote]
I guess life's only worthwile if you are completely non-dependent. It's okay for others to impose, just as long as it's not society or the government.

[stevil]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1352924441' post='2509981']
I guess life's only worthwile if you are completely non-dependent. It's okay for others to impose, just as long as it's not society or the government.
[/quote]
I'm an atheist therefore nothing is sacred. Everything is up for debate, I try to keep an open mind to everything.