Did The "pro-life" Movement Permanently Change Because Of Romn

[havok579257]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353189474' post='2511985']
You can assert all that you wish, but if you attempt to live by your definition of selfish, you will find that society rebels against you.
If you steal, people will punish you, if you kill, people will punish you, if you lie, people won't trust you. You will soon find that you have very limited options in life.
To selfishly benefit yourself you need to behave well to others. To benefit yourself you need to live in a supportive society rather than a cut throat one.
But of course I cannot reason with you, your confirmation bias tells you that selfishness is wrong and leads to destructive society, so you choose to see only that with confirms your own beliefs.


I am not telling anyone to vote a particular way, I am not trying to force law or rules, I am merely talking openly about my own philosophy as I am interested in learning about yours and hearing your challenges to mine. It's called open dialogue, where you discuss topics and listen to what others say.
[/quote]

well speaking strictly facts and not adding any religion at all your completely wrong on the meaning of selfishness. i don't know where your coming up with your definition but the vast majority of people do not see selfishness in the same way as you do. to be selfish is to care about oneself over all others and not caring what happens to others or how you treat others because you come first and no one else matters. your trying to warp being selfish into caring about society and others is far from what you actually mean.

[Aloysius]

the truly unselfish would put the good of others above good for themselves. ie Spock or Jesus Christ, take your pick. without the willingness to self-sacrifice, all morality is relatively meaningless; when all you're saying is that you're motivated by your own self interest, well you might as well not be human at all, radical self interest is an animal instinct. it is altruism that makes life meaningful and worth living, self-sacrificial love that makes anything worthwhile. without self-sacrificial love, everything is meaningless. it is the foundation on which everything good and decent stands. if you do not love anything enough that you'd be willing to lose your life for it, then you do not truly love anything.

[stevil]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1353199412' post='2512029']
well speaking strictly facts and not adding any religion at all your completely wrong on the meaning of selfishness.
[/quote]
Selfish means doing what is in your own best interests.

Stealing and facing the consequence of either going to prison or being attacked by those you steal from, is not in a person's best interests.

If you put thought into it, i'm sure havok, you can work out what is selfishly in a person's best interests, you will ultimately find that it is in their best interest to support a caring and supportive society with which to live in.

Edited November 18, 2012 by stevil

[havok579257]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353205738' post='2512089']
Selfish means doing what is in your own best interests.

Stealing and facing the consequence of either going to prison or being attacked by those you steal from, is not in a person's best interests.

If you put thought into it, i'm sure havok, you can work out what is selfishly in a person's best interests, you will ultimately find that it is in their best interest to support a caring and supportive society with which to live in.
[/quote]


stealing and murder can be in some ones best interest according to you. you keep harping on the fact about the only reason murder, theft, i guess you could also say rape and pedophilia are bad is because of fear of getting caught. let's be honest here, so many people get away with crime everyday in the world. your all for a man choosing to rape a women or a small child as long as he doesn't get caught. if he can get away with it and it does not personally effect you, you are all for a man being able to choose to rape a woman or a child. also that the only thing that would keep someone from doing this is being caught which does not happen in countries all over the world and if that were to happen your perfectly ok with it if it doesn't effrect you.

like for example your are more than ok with the rebels over in darfur raping women and children and killing children because it doesn't effect you over in america. am i correct in what i am understanding about what your saying?

[stevil]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1353214050' post='2512222']
stealing and murder can be in some ones best interest according to you. you keep harping on the fact about the only reason murder, theft, i guess you could also say rape and pedophilia are bad is because of fear of getting caught.
[/quote]
That's not what I am saying.

A selfish person doesn't do these things through fear of getting caught, yes that is part of the story.

But it doesn't take a genius deep thinker to realise that a selfish person doesn't want other people to steal from them, murder them, rape them. Thus a selfish person wants a society where people don't do these things. Thus we want legal constraints and enforcement. We also understand that our own behavior influences society, the way society reacts to us and the way society behaves in general.

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1353214050' post='2512222']
like for example your are more than ok with the rebels over in darfur raping women and children and killing children because it doesn't effect you over in america. am i correct in what i am understanding about what your saying?
[/quote]
I don't live in America. I do not support USA interferring in other nations affairs.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353180605' post='2511908']

Yes, absolutely I am selfish. I take that as a compliment.

I will not impose myself onto others, I will not force them to live my life. I respect that they are in control of their own lives, that they can exercise their own "free will" how they choose as long as it doesn't make society dangerous for me, or endanger myself or my loved ones. People can "sin" to their hearts content, it is not my concern. Not because I am indifferent, but because I know my place.
[/quote]

[southern california guy]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353226019' post='2512277']
That's not what I am saying.

A selfish person doesn't do these things through fear of getting caught, yes that is part of the story.

But it doesn't take a genius deep thinker to realise that a selfish person doesn't want other people to steal from them, murder them, rape them. Thus a selfish person wants a society where people don't do these things. Thus we want legal constraints and enforcement. We also understand that our own behavior influences society, the way society reacts to us and the way society behaves in general.


I don't live in America. I do not support USA interferring in other nations affairs.
[/quote]

I think that selfishness is the reason that we have stealing and crimes. Stealing is certainly not a selfless act. Somebody else has something that you want -- and you consider only your own desire and not the feelings or consequences that your actions are going to inflict on the person that you are stealing from.

I believe that modern society has formed because people want to be protected from stealing. In ancient times -- in China and fuedal Europe the wealthy man had to be able to protect and hold what he owned. He would hire other men to protect him. And because his wealth had protection he was able to proper and grow. City's would grow around the wealthy man and they would pay for his protection through taxes. In a sense, when we are paying taxes, we are paying for a government that will protect us.

My uncle died over a year ago and two of his brothers -- my uncles are the Executors. They are refusing to pay anything out and it appears that one of the uncles has taken almost the entire trust. The problem is that it would cost more to go after them legally than we could ever expect to get. I would call their actions selfish. They live in Ohio and they view the family in California with a great amount of jealousy. They feel that we don't deserve the money -- and of course they are very "good" Catholics..............

I think that it is easy to be selfish and rationalize. The Jesus Christ of the Bible certainly was not.

[stevil]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1353362917' post='2513158']
I think that selfishness is the reason that we have stealing and crimes.
[/quote]
Sometimes people steal and commit crimes because they are in desperate situations, their immediate need for food or drugs, overrides their long term need to have a caring and supporting society or the risks of being caught.
Others steal and commit crimes because they are immature and think they are invincible or they are rebelling against society.
Others may do it because they are self destructive.


Myself, I am selfish and I don't do it, because I don't need to and I don't want to get caught and face the punishment, and I want a society that doesn't steal from me. I am not self destructive, I look at the long term effects of my actions, I recognise that I live in a society,

I take responsibility for my actions. I can't simply pray for forgiveness.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353132695' post='2511700']


I think humans are inherently social beings and morality is figuring out as a community how to live together to the benefit of individuals as social beings.


[/quote]
Can you explain sexual morality amongst Athio/Agnostic people for me, please.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1353365963' post='2513188']
Can you explain sexual morality amongst Athio/Agnostic people for me, please.
[/quote]Yes. Not Moral Universalism.

Can you detail the Objective Moral Truths for sexuality amongst Theists?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1353365963' post='2513188']
Can you explain sexual morality amongst Athio/Agnostic people for me, please.
[/quote]
Impossible, as they are not monolithic, and have no dogma.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1353439885' post='2513798']
Yes. Not Moral Universalism.

Can you detail the Objective Moral Truths for sexuality amongst Theists?
[/quote]
Jesus teaches us about sexual morality. There is something in scripture about understanding of scripture being open or closed to us depending on if God allows it or not. I guess our conscience confirms that this part of scripture is open to most of us. The priests who said that God allows them their sexual immorality maybe trying to fool themselves or more likely trying to turn their victims away from faith and are thus vicars of satan. Obviously the book is shut to them. The rest of us deal with our sexual weaknesses the best way we can. (except for knight of Christ) That's why we have confession.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1353440283' post='2513802']
Impossible, as they are not monolithic, and have no dogma.
[/quote]
That's what I thought! Hey you're almost as amesome as me!

[Socrates]

Romney lost, and has thus not permanently changed jack.

Even had Romney won the election, the pro-life movement would continue doing the same things it does under the Obama presidency, and every other presidency - work to change hearts and minds about the evil of abortion, and press for pro-life legislation and candidates wherever possible.

This was a lousy presidential race, in which pro-lifers could either abstain from voting (and thus have no effect on the election), or vote for the lesser of two evils to try to get the militantly pro-abortion Obama out of office. But, let's face it, in no election have either of the major candidates been ideal on this issue.

Romney lost, so let's leave him in the dust bin of history and move on. We have more pressing issues (like the reality of the Obamanation's pro-abortion regime) to deal with.

[Socrates]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353205738' post='2512089']
Selfish means doing what is in your own best interests.

Stealing and facing the consequence of either going to prison or being attacked by those you steal from, is not in a person's best interests.
[/quote]
Unless you happen to be the one in charge of determining who goes to prison, and can act above the law and steal and murder for your own gain (and personal "best interests"), as have countless dictators and tyrants through history (and today).

Or if you have sufficient confidence in your own power, influence, and ability to avoid the consequence of the law.

Amoralist "morality" still boils down to "might makes right."
Some dictators and mob bosses manage to live long, materially prosperous lives.
You have no coherent argument for why they should not do what they see to be in their own best interests.

And besides, even if someone chooses to act in a way that is ultimately self-destructive, who are you to say them nay?

If there is no objective morality, you might as well just let everyone do whatever they please, and let them live with the consequences.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1353454385' post='2513922']
Unless you happen to be the one in charge of determining who goes to prison, and can act above the law and steal and murder for your own gain (and personal "best interests"), as have countless dictators and tyrants through history (and today).

Or if you have sufficient confidence in your own power, influence, and ability to avoid the consequence of the law.

Amoralist "morality" still boils down to "might makes right."
Some dictators and mob bosses manage to live long, materially prosperous lives.
You have no coherent argument for why they should not do what they see to be in their own best interests.

And besides, even if someone chooses to act in a way that is ultimately self-destructive, who are you to say them nay?

If there is no objective morality, you might as well just let everyone do whatever they please, and let them live with the consequences.
[/quote]


If you are an Atheist you figure that religion was a creation of man. But you also have to consider why they chose certain "moral" principles -- marriage, monogamy, moderation in food and wine, charity towards others, etc. Does it lead to a happier life, regardless of your beliefs?

[stevil]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1353462611' post='2513971']
If you are an Atheist you figure that religion was a creation of man. But you also have to consider why they chose certain "moral" principles -- marriage, monogamy, moderation in food and wine, charity towards others, etc. Does it lead to a happier life, regardless of your beliefs?
[/quote]
I'm not sure if pairing up (marriage) and monogamy were religious ideas or not.

There are many other animals that mate for life.

But then again I'm not sure if humans are naturally monogamous

[Winchester]

So when do y'all start talking about 'utils'?

[southern california guy]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1353477252' post='2514086']
I'm not sure if pairing up (marriage) and monogamy were religious ideas or not.

There are many other animals that mate for life.

But then again I'm not sure if humans are naturally monogamous
[/quote]

Does it matter if they are "religious" ideas? If we are taking an atheist approach then all religion was created by people -- and it can be viewed from a non-religious point of view. For instance why did people start to push monogamy and marriage?

I would argue that monogamy and marriage give a society stability. Children have fewer problems when they grow up with both a father and a mother. And by marriage I mean a "committed relationship". The religion and the traditions vary from culture to culture but is seems that all cultures and religions have "marriages".

[Winchester]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1353453821' post='2513918']
Romney lost, and has thus not permanently changed jack.


[/quote]
You really do put a lot of emphasis on national elections. That's sad.

[Socrates]

You really do put a lot of emphasis on national elections. That's sad.

 

I wasn't the guy making the grandiose claim that a politician "permanently changed" the pro-life movement simply by running in a national election.