Darn Ya Women "priests"

[DiscerningCatholic]

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)][font=Century Schoolbook', Century, Georgia, serif][size=3][background=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0980392)][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]So I posted [url="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/03/why-women-cannot-be-priests.html"]this article[/url] on my blog and got this response:[/size][/font][/background][/size][/font][/color]


[quote][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)][font=Century Schoolbook', Century, Georgia, serif][size=3][background=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0980392)][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]This was a really interesting read, but I find a few problems with it. I say this all as a Catholic who loves her Church - I want the best for the Church, and I don’t think this argument is it. [/size][/font][/background][/size][/font][/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)][font=Century Schoolbook', Century, Georgia, serif][size=3][background=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0980392)][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]1. That last sentence, that claims that the Church does not have the authority to ordain women is just absurd. Did Christ not give Peter, the first Pope, the keys to the Kingdom of God? Did He not give him the power to bind and loose? Why on earth should that power not include ordination? Also, all the theological teaching for why women cannot be ordained was written and endorsed by men in the Church, and there are many reasons for why women should be ordained. Christ never spoke about this, only humans did. This is a human rule, and humans can change it without offending God. [/size][/font][/background][/size][/font][/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)][font=Century Schoolbook', Century, Georgia, serif][size=3][background=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0980392)][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]2. All Christians, made in the image of God, strive to be Christ-like. Christ is the height of all good things, and to live and love like Him is my and all Christians’ goal. Of course women are able to act Christ-like and minister Christ to others. Women “play the part of Christ…through Eucharistic sacrifice” all the time in daily life. Women can do the same on the altar, and to say otherwise is offensive to the image and likeness of God present within every woman. [/size][/font][/background][/size][/font][/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)][font=Century Schoolbook', Century, Georgia, serif][size=3][background=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0980392)][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]3. It is a false dichotomy to say women’s height of God-like-ship is motherhood and men’s is priesthood. Women and men can be parents, like God is a parent to all of us- that is one way to strive to be like God. Women and men should both be able to God-like in a priestly capacity. If men can participate in the redemptive sacrifice as parents or as priests, why shouldn’t women as well? The article is right in saying that sexuality is non-arbitrary, but sexuality is also not prohibitive. I refuse to believe that God’s choice to give me a second X chromosome instead of a Y prohibits me from participating in His redemptive sacrifice on the basis that exactly zero of my experiences with Christ have even remotely pointed to that. [/size][/font][/background][/size][/font][/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)][font=Century Schoolbook', Century, Georgia, serif][size=3][background=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0980392)][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]4. Priesthood is not just about self-fulfillment, it is also about serving others through the vocation. Women and men are both capable of shepherding people through life - look at all the successful parents who do so beautifully! In many (not all) parts of the world, women would be accepted and safe as priests, and would be able to lead a congregation successfully toward Christ, and would be blessed to have good priests, regardless of gender. We also can’t overlook that we have a shortage of vocations, and allowing women’s ordination would ease that problem - at the very least, it would lead to more congregations with capable priests leading them towards Christ. How can that be a bad thing? [/size][/font][/background][/size][/font][/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)][font=Century Schoolbook', Century, Georgia, serif][size=3][background=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0980392)][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]5. And lastly, the Church for 2000 years has been made of men writing the earthly rules. The Church serves all genders, not just men, and by excluding women from the priesthood, she excludes at least half of her constituency from participating in the hierarchy. It seems hypocritical for followers of Christ, a person who reached out to people of all social classes, [i]and all genders,[/i] to practice exclusion at any level, but especially along the most basic divide in the human race. As a woman, it is disheartening to know that all decisions in the Church I love so well will be made by a group of people who, while holy, fundamentally exclude me. [/size][/font][/background][/size][/font][/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)][font=Century Schoolbook', Century, Georgia, serif][size=3][background=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0980392)][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]I’m not going to leave the Church because of this issue. But I am disappointed in her. I don’t think it’s what God wants from His children. [/size][/font][/background][/size][/font][/color][/quote]


[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)][font=Century Schoolbook', Century, Georgia, serif][size=3][background=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0980392)][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=4]How should I respond? Should I respond? I was thinking something along the lines of this: [/size][/font][/background][/size][/font][/color]

[size=4][color=#333333][font='lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]The Catholic Church does NOT, and never has, and never will have the authority to change God's laws. [/font][/color][/size]

[size=4][color=#333333][font='lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]No man has ever given birth to a child, much less to the Savior of the world. If you think that women are so "under privileged" because they can't be priests, you need to do some reading up on the history and saints of the Church. The highest calling is not priesthood, contrary to what people seem to think. The highest calling is SAINTHOOD, and you cannot achieve sainthood by going against Church teaching in the name of "equality."[/font][/color][/size]

Edited November 11, 2012 by DiscerningCatholic

[beatitude]

She's asking you some good interesting questions, but in your reply you don't answer any of them, and you come across as quite aggressive. Often people honestly don't understand the orthodox point of view, but they are still striving, very sincerely, to grow in their faith and to love their church. This commenter is evidently well-read and articulate, but she is displaying some misconceptions about the nature of priesthood and participation in the church community. Perhaps you could clarify each of those points for her, but it's important to put as much thought and politeness into your reply as she has evidently put into her original comment. If you don't feel comfortable doing that - either because you don't understand her questions, or you don't have the specific knowledge to answer them thoroughly, or some other reason - just say so, and offer to pray for her instead. Perhaps direct her to some good books and articles that she may not have seen. But there's no need to be belligerent about it. Try and use a gentler tone.

[Nihil Obstat]

I think that [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html"]Ordinatio Sacerdotalis[/url] is an excellent place to start.
And O.S. references [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19761015_inter-insigniores_en.html"]Inter Insigniores[/url], which is also good (and quite a bit longer).
[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html"]Mulieris Dignitatem[/url] is great as a companion to Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, in order to understand the true vocations proper to women.

[ACS67]

I agree with beatitude. Tone it down with the attitude. You come across as an immature brat, not someone who is knowledgeable about the Catholic Faith.

[jazzytakara]

I once asked about this, as I come from a protestant church and have had more female ministers than male one. It was explained to me that the church has different roles for women and men, for both genders are different. And different does not mean unequal, it just means that they offer different things to the church. The church is kind of like the family, and because the catholic church emphasizes the traditional family structure (mother and father), the same goes through the church. But both men and women are equally important, but in different ways. A priest is like a father figure, leading the family, instructing the family, protecting the family/faiith, spreading the faith. Jesus was male and made only men his Apostles. His mother Mary was sinless, so one would think that she would be an apostle, but Jesus chose a different role for her. Women are naturally more nurturing, a women's role is to care for the church family, guide the church family, help the church family. Nuns do things that priests do not and vice versa, but we don't call the church out for not allowing men to become nuns. It isn't about hierarchy, its more so about assigning the best roles for each gender. For each individual.

This is probably not the best example, but it made sense to me. Men and women offer different things, so it makes sense that their are different roles. Women are not undervalued but highly honored in the church, look at all of the female saints, think of Mary. Women and men are equal in God's eyes and the church's eyes, but they offer different roles to help the church function.

[Lil Red]

if you are having trouble articulating an argument, might I suggest the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/links/category/16-holy-orders/page__sortBy__link_hits__sortDirection__Z-A"]Defense Directory under "Holy Orders"[/url], and for starters, these articles found through the DD?

[url="http://cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=139"]Why Not Women Priests?[/url] (from CUF.org)
[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0001.html"]Women Priests: No Chance [/url](from CERC)
[url="http://archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0201sbs.asp"]Why Can't Women be Priests?[/url] (This Rock magazine article)

[DiscerningCatholic]

Okay, before you guys start calling me names, I did NOT reply directly to that reblog. I addressed it on my Facebook as general information, not on Tumblr. She's come and trolled me before, and I explained most of this to her already (and the rest of it via other posts), so I didn't feel like addressing it again with the same person when she is CLEARLY not interested in my response. I was NOT saying it with the intent of being "a snotty brat." I'm sorry that you read it that way, but I don't think it warranted accusations like that. I was basically asking if there was a short, straightforward way that I could answer that. NOT if my tone was happy and sweet enough.

Edited November 12, 2012 by DiscerningCatholic

[cmotherofpirl]

I think the person deserves to have all of her points answered, whether she is annoying or not.

[DiscerningCatholic]

I've already covered them. And you guys can say that I'm being "an immature brat" by responding to this, but I came here to see if anyone could summarize, very briefly, the answer to my question.

[Lil Red]

i was wondering if she had "trolled" you before. anyway, the three articles i posted, especially the CUF one, are short and to the point. hopefully they are helpful.

[DiscerningCatholic]

Yup. Several times. I have a document of stuff I copy/paste into repetitive asks (or posts for my pro-life blog) and I need to add something very brief about women "priests" into that document. The way I've been answering has been way too long to put in that document.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

[quote name='DiscerningCatholic' timestamp='1352683704' post='2508333']
Okay, before you guys start calling me names, I did NOT reply directly to that reblog. I addressed it on my Facebook as general information, not on Tumblr. She's come and trolled me before, and I explained most of this to her already (and the rest of it via other posts), so I didn't feel like addressing it again with the same person when she is CLEARLY not interested in my response. I was NOT saying it with the intent of being "a snotty brat." I'm sorry that you read it that way, but I don't think it warranted accusations like that. I was basically asking if there was a short, straightforward way that I could answer that. NOT if my tone was happy and sweet enough.
[/quote]

DC, I don't think they were accusing you of being a snotty brat, but rather helping you understand the tone and impression those words were coming accross as. It is often difficult for us to see a possible percieved tone in our writing, because our own intent is so present in our minds...I agree that you did not address any of the points brought up directly in you response.

One thing that really struck me that the responder noted is that "women play the part of Christ in the Eucharistic Sacrifice everyday." I might ask for more clairification from her as this is blatantly wrong, and she might have a misunderstanding of how the Priest acts in Persona Christi Capitis.

[DiscerningCatholic]

I DID NOT RESPOND TO THE ASKER. How many times do I need to reiterate that? I deleted it, because she's come and asked me most of these questions multiple times, and the other points have been addressed either by other Tumblrs or by myself at some point. I brought up that point on my Facebook (whose audience is 99% faithful Catholics), not on Tumblr.

And for future reference, that person could have chosen better words than "an immature brat." I'm fine if my tone comes across as a bit aggressive, but it's not like saying that someone is "an immature brat" is any less aggressive. I get battered around verbally at home, and I do NOT need it on Phatmass from users I have never seen.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

DC- whoa! You asked how you thought you should respond. I would agree a different choice of words could have been used to describe how your writing came across. Don't take it so to heart hon. Not worth your energy.

I don't think anyone here really thinks your a brat. You seem like a lovely person with a good heart. I am sorry you face a difficult situation at home and I am sorry you have had a rough go with this woman. Might be worth letting some time pass before you respond.

[vee]

DC, if youve had problems with this person posting comments on your blog before and you feel they are a troll, then delete and block that person. It is your blog, you know the extent of the circumstances and if you think that person is trolling cut them off.