I Met An "old Catholic" Yesterday.

[BigJon16]

He goes to the Latin Mass, stating that he doesn't agree with Vatican II. He is my dentist.


The subject came up when I asked him to fill out the dental report on my seminary application.



It was a very awkward dental appointment.




Although, he did earn some more respect from me: In order for him to disagree with Vatican II, means that he has more knowledge about our faith then the average cafeteria Catholic, even if the knowledge is wrong. I had expected him to be just another cafe Catholic.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1352812449' post='2509141']
He goes to the Latin Mass, stating that he doesn't agree with Vatican II. He is my dentist.


The subject came up when I asked him to fill out the dental report on my seminary application.



It was a very awkward dental appointment.




Although, he did earn some more respect from me: In order for him to disagree with Vatican II, means that he has more knowledge about our faith then the average cafeteria Catholic, even if the knowledge is wrong. I had expected him to be just another cafe Catholic.
[/quote]

Both Catholics are damaging to the faith. I can't really see why either is preferable.

[qfnol31]

True "Old Catholics" also reject Vatican 1.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1352812449' post='2509141']
He goes to the Latin Mass, stating that he doesn't agree with Vatican II. He is my dentist.


The subject came up when I asked him to fill out the dental report on my seminary application.



It was a very awkward dental appointment.




Although, he did earn some more respect from me: In order for him to disagree with Vatican II, means that he has more knowledge about our faith then the average cafeteria Catholic, even if the knowledge is wrong. I had expected him to be just another cafe Catholic.
[/quote]

While I most certainly do not share his pov I do have some respect for it. For 50 years traditional minded Catholics and nontraditional minded Catholics have been taught, by left leaning bishops, that VII approve of all kinds of things that were actually abuses. Then when you read the VII documents that are used to justify the abuses the writing is not very clear. The false spirit of VII is very much still alive. Left leaning
bishops are still trying to hijack VII and thus spread confusion to those like your dentist.

I wish the Pope would get rid of the ambiguity of VII and replace it with clearer teachings as well as formally condemn very clear all the elements of the false spirit of VII.

[BigJon16]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1352822090' post='2509182']

Both Catholics are damaging to the faith. I can't really see why either is preferable.
[/quote]


I'm not saying that he is 'preferable', just that I have a bit of respect for him because he likely knows more about our faith then a cafe Catholic. Even if what he knows and thinks is misguided.


It was better to hear him say that then to say "I went to church once" or refuse to fill out the forms because he hates Catholicism period.


I shall be praying for him though.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1352836035' post='2509301']


I'm not saying that he is 'preferable', just that I have a bit of respect for him because he likely knows more about our faith then a cafe Catholic. Even if what he knows and thinks is misguided.


It was better to hear him say that then to say "I went to church once" or refuse to fill out the forms because he hates Catholicism period.


I shall be praying for him though.
[/quote]

True. It's at least a refreshing change of scenery.

[Anastasia13]

I thought about visiting a local Old Catholic church. I was disappointed at the moral laxity demonstrated on the website's info about it. I don't know if this is common or not. WEEP, Catholics! I could have been one.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Light and Truth

[Basilisa Marie]

It seems to me that a lot of "Old Catholics" tend to have problems accepting Vatican II not really because of what the documents actually say, but because of what other people have done - taking a handful of ideas from them and running away with them. Like, inculturation - SC talks about how incorporating local culture can be a good thing, and a tool to help people come to a deeper understanding of what's going on in the liturgy. But inculturation is balanced with paragraphs on how simplicity is great, how chant should be preserved as the primary music, and nothing's said about turning the altar around or using felt banners or holding hands during the Our Father or whatever crazy things people have come up with.

It's my hope that with Pope Benedict's efforts to promote the availability of the Tridentine liturgy, the new translation of the missal, and a general increase in the quality of catechesis we can reach out to more "Old Catholics" and help them come back to the Church.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1352867446' post='2509673']
It's my hope that with Pope Benedict's efforts to promote the availability of the Tridentine liturgy, the new translation of the missal, and a general increase in the quality of catechesis we can reach out to more "Old Catholics" and help them come back to the Church.
[/quote]
Honestly, I think it is going to take more than just catechesis and the liturgy for them. Since they are in formal schism, as opposed to the SSPX, and since they actually formally reject both Vatican I and II, the road to unity with them is nearly as difficult as it would be with the church of England. I might be exaggerating a little bit there, but perhaps not as much as we would like.

Actually I have read that the Old Catholics are formally in communion with the Anglican Communion by means of the Union of Utrecht. So that is rather a barrier to reconciliation with the Catholic Church.

Besides that, their catechesis is at a far worse state even than ours is.


From the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Utrecht_(Old_Catholic)"]Wiki article[/url] on them:


[indent=1]Old Catholics hold an open view to most issues, including the role of women in the Church, the role of married people within ordained ministry, the morality of same sex relationships, the use of one's conscience when deciding to use artificial contraception, and liturgical reforms such as open communion (because no human can presume to exclude any Christian from communion). Its liturgy has not significantly departed from the Tridentine Mass, as is shown in the English translation of the German Altarbook (missal).
In 1994 the German bishops decided to ordain women as priests and put this into practice on 27 May 1996; similar decisions and practices followed in Austria, Switzerland and the Netherlands. The Utrecht Union allows those who are divorced to have a new religious marriage, and it has no particular teaching on abortion, leaving such decisions to the married couple.[/indent]



Realistically, I think they are more likely to lose valid orders than they are to come back into communion with the Church. I would like to be wrong on that, of course.

It would be a very critical misunderstanding to treat these guys as schismatic rad trads. They seem to be theologically extremely liberal, so the keys to reconciliation with traditionalists, i.e. catechesis, liturgy, and orthodox theology, are not the same as the keys to reconciliation with theological modernists.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Nihil Obstat

[Rosaries]

Very cool! I wish I could meet more like this. I know very few Catholics and most are ChristmasandEaster types. Sad.

[BigJon16]

He is a good dentist, though. That I am sure of.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Rosaries' timestamp='1352875256' post='2509766']
Very cool! I wish I could meet more like this. I know very few Catholics and most are ChristmasandEaster types. Sad.
[/quote]
Old Catholics will not help you in that respect.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1352830490' post='2509261']
I wish the Pope would get rid of the ambiguity of VII and replace it with clearer teachings as well as formally condemn very clear all the elements of the false spirit of VII.
[/quote]


He spoke a lot about this while Cardinal. I think many of his actions reflect a move toward this direction. By far, he is my favorite Pope ever!!!!!!!!

[Papist]

The validity and legitimacy of VII does not rely on peoples' use or misuse of it.

The "spirit of Vatican II" was invented in order to disagree/reject with Humanae Vitae. Because one can't read the documents of VII and Humanae Vitae, and then accept one and reject the other.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Papist

[Papist]

Does anyone recall when Humanae Vitae came out? Many Catholic "theologians" bought a full page in the New York Times just to advertise/announce they reject the Pope's encyclical. The thing is that they could have not have read it prior to taking the ad in the paper. All they were going on was leaks and rumors. Everyone was anticipating the Pope changing Church teaching contraception.