An Anarchist Saint

[Aloysius]

Servant of God Dorothy Day's canonization process marches forward, and given that there are many anarcho-capitalist Catholics on these boards, and I think one anarcho-syndicalist atheist or two, I thought it'd be interesting to discuss Dorothy Day from the standpoint of anarchy, as both of those terms (anarcho capitalist and anarcho syndicalist) have been applied to her, while I would actually describe her more of an anarcho-distributist; she was, if nothing else, a self-described anarchist. Anarchy is quite the controversial topic amongst Catholics in terms of what the proper doctrine of authority and power might be, so an anarchist being considered for sainthood is certainly a topic that I would imagine could be interesting around these parts.

http://www.speroforum.com/a/12548/Dorothy-Days-anarchoCatholicism-The-way-of-love
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/14/saint-dorothy-day-controv_n_2133584.html

personally I'm a bit of a panarchist (FOCJ, ftw), a bit of a minarchist, and definitely also a solidarist/distributist, it's hard to pin myself down really, I like voluntarism but also recognize authority, even authority for promoting the common good, just at small local levels, and I also oppose distant big centralized government and distant big centralized business managements. I'm not as much of a pacifist as her but I am very in favor of non-aggression. all in all I rather like Dorothy and would like to see her canonized, which is not to say that I agree with all of her political theories which I am putting up for debate here, anyway I think her canonization is probably going to happen some day. What is everyone's opinion of her, vis a vis her anarchism? Those who hold that it is impossible for a Catholic to hold any anarchist theories at all, should that be an impediment to her canonization? Why or why not? Can a Catholic be an anarchist? Or an agorist?

wikipedia links for those who don't get what the heck I'm talking about:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism"]Anarcho-capitalism[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism"]Anarcho-syndicalism[/url]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panarchism"]Panarchism[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchism"]Minarchism[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOCJ"]FOCJ[/url]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism"]Agorism[/url]

[Winchester]

The only real anarchists are the anarcho-capitalists.

[PhuturePriest]

By "many" you mean Nihil Obstat and Winchester?

[4588686]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1353528426' post='2514386']
The only real anarchists are the anarcho-capitalists.
[/quote]

That's a silly thing to say.

[Anomaly]

[color=#222222][font='Arial', 'sans-serif'][size=2]Labeling is so establishmentarist [/size][/font][/color]

[Roamin Catholic]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1353528700' post='2514387']
By "many" you mean Nihil Obstat and Winchester?
[/quote]

So naive

[4588686]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1353528343' post='2514385']
Servant of God Dorothy Day's canonization process marches forward, and given that there are many anarcho-capitalist Catholics on these boards, and I think one anarcho-syndicalist atheist or two, I thought it'd be interesting to discuss Dorothy Day from the standpoint of anarchy, as both of those terms (anarcho capitalist and anarcho syndicalist) have been applied to her, while I would actually describe her more of an anarcho-distributist; she was, if nothing else, a self-described anarchist. Anarchy is quite the controversial topic amongst Catholics in terms of what the proper doctrine of authority and power might be, so an anarchist being considered for sainthood is certainly a topic that I would imagine could be interesting around these parts.

[url="http://www.speroforum.com/a/12548/Dorothy-Days-anarchoCatholicism-The-way-of-love"]http://www.speroforu...The-way-of-love[/url]
[url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/14/saint-dorothy-day-controv_n_2133584.html"]http://www.huffingto..._n_2133584.html[/url]

personally I'm a bit of a panarchist (FOCJ, ftw), a bit of a minarchist, and definitely also a solidarist/distributist, it's hard to pin myself down really, I like voluntarism but also recognize authority, even authority for promoting the common good, just at small local levels, and I also oppose distant big centralized government and distant big centralized business managements. I'm not as much of a pacifist as her but I am very in favor of non-aggression. all in all I rather like Dorothy and would like to see her canonized, which is not to say that I agree with all of her political theories which I am putting up for debate here, anyway I think her canonization is probably going to happen some day. What is everyone's opinion of her, vis a vis her anarchism? Those who hold that it is impossible for a Catholic to hold any anarchist theories at all, should that be an impediment to her canonization? Why or why not? Can a Catholic be an anarchist? Or an agorist?

wikipedia links for those who don't get what the heck I'm talking about:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism"]Anarcho-capitalism[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism"]Anarcho-syndicalism[/url]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panarchism"]Panarchism[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchism"]Minarchism[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOCJ"]FOCJ[/url]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism"]Agorism[/url]
[/quote]

I think that the purists would claim it is impossible for an anarchist to be a Catholic but I find rabid ideological purity tiresome and stupid. I think it's too bad she became Catholic but I think she was a really admirable woman and the Church would be doing a good thing if it canonized her.

[Winchester]

Luckily, lots of Catholics are impurists.

[Aloysius]

lol the fun has already begun!

I've heard Dorothy Day referred to by the term anarcho-syndicalism, and certainly that is some of the company she kept and some of her influences and movements she sympathized with, but I think that largely she's labelled that on the basis of her pro-labor attitudes but that it's not an entirely perfect fit for what is the general view of anarcho-syndicalism; I think she's very voluntarist in many ways.... but also very much solidarist in the tradition of Catholic social justice teaching, which makes for a rather interesting combination...

Edited November 21, 2012 by Aloysius

[4588686]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1353528700' post='2514387']
By "many" you mean Nihil Obstat and Winchester?
[/quote]


Neither of them are anarchists in the common or historical sense of the word.

[Winchester]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9MiS9tn_r4[/media]

[4588686]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1353529229' post='2514399']
lol the fun has already begun!

I've heard Dorothy Day referred to by the term anarcho-syndicalism, and certainly that is some of the company she kept and some of her influences and movements she sympathized with, but I think that largely she's labelled that on the basis of her pro-labor attitudes but that it's not an entirely perfect fit for what is the general view of anarcho-syndicalism; I think she's very voluntarist in many ways.... but also very much solidarist in the tradition of Catholic social justice teaching, which makes for a rather interesting combination...
[/quote]


I really think a lot of these labels do nothing but obscure the commonalities that a lot of these movements have. I think that a Norzick and a more thoughtful anarchist could have more in common than they would like to admit.

I also think that you and I are probably more close than people would expect in our theoretical views.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Hasan

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1353529360' post='2514403']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9MiS9tn_r4[/media]
[/quote]

You really love that movie.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1353529314' post='2514402']


Neither of them are anarchists in the common or historical sense of the word.
[/quote]
Yeah, but who's gonna enforce that? Anarchists? Not bloody likely.

[4588686]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1353529720' post='2514412']
Yeah, but who's gonna enforce that? Anarchists? Not bloody likely.
[/quote]


Eggzactly

[Winchester]

It's Lord of the Flies up in here!

[Aloysius]

http://catholicanarchy.org/?p=1274

... interesting...
[quote]. So he went up to her and asked, “Miss Day, how do you reconcile your Catholicism with your anarchism?” And she looked at him and said, “Well, it’s never been a problem for me.” And that was it. He didn’t know what else to say. That was the end of the conversation.
[b]Q: How did she resolve the similar tension between being an “anarchist” and being faithful to Catholic tradition?[/b]
Tradition was a living thing for Dorothy, not a dead thing. Tradition did not mean for her that you grip things past in such a rigid way that they can’t be life-giving today. She looked back to the early church and said, “Why are we not doing this?” In the early church there was no usury, for example. In the early church we shared everything in common. In the early church Christians were pacifists. And so she modeled the Worker on this.
But Catholic Worker did this in the living church of today, as a prophetic witness, not in defiance against others. It wasn’t oppositional, though sometimes some perceived it that way. She absolutely understood herself to be within the tradition of the church, offering this witness in a very humble way.[/quote]

have any of you anarchist folk seen this website: http://catholicanarchy.org/ ? I only just found it searching around for stuff on Dorothy Day.

And on the topic of her pacifism, she's very similar to Edith Keeler in her WWII stance... Edith Keeler must die!

[4588686]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1353530440' post='2514429']
[url="http://catholicanarchy.org/?p=1274"]http://catholicanarchy.org/?p=1274[/url]

... interesting...


have any of you anarchist folk seen this website: [url="http://catholicanarchy.org/"]http://catholicanarchy.org/[/url] ? I only just found it searching around for stuff on Dorothy Day.

And on the topic of her pacifism, she's very similar to Edith Keeler in her WWII stance... Edith Keeler must die!
[/quote]



Anarchists have always been anti-capitalists.

[4588686]

[img]http://robertgraham.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/property-753420.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1353547153' post='2514539']



Anarchists have always been anti-capitalists.
[/quote]
[img]http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/ht_Murray_Rothbard_nt_120312_wb.jpg[/img]