An Anarchist Saint

[4588686]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1353547851' post='2514558']
[img]http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/ht_Murray_Rothbard_nt_120312_wb.jpg[/img]
[/quote]


Who is that? Friedman's son?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1353548058' post='2514560']


Who is that? Friedman's son?
[/quote]
Friedman was a socialist.

[Ed Normile]

This is fair article on Dorothy Day and her views and works for those who have no real base to comment on her. [url="http://www.speroforum.com/a/12548/Dorothy-Days-anarchoCatholicism-The-way-of-love"]http://www.speroforum.com/a/12548/Dorothy-Days-anarchoCatholicism-The-way-of-love[/url] Its a good read, check it out.

By the way Dorothy Day never was an advocate of forced redistribution, she believed as Jesus that we should give of our freewill, and boy did she ever live that out.

ed

[Aloysius]

I linked to that article in the OP

and as an anarchist she certainly wouldn't have believed in state redistribution, cause she didn't believe in the state, but she was a distributist (which is not the same thing as believing in state redistribution of wealth, it is based on "distributive justice")

Hasan, Dorothy Day's anarchism was not against private property, she opposed state ownership or centralized state capitalism ownership, but always promoted ownership of property as natural to mankind. as I've said, she was a distributist.

[b]"We are not expecting Utopia here on this earth. But God meant things to be much easier than we have made them.[/b] A man has a natural right to food, clothing, and shelter. A certain amount of goods is necessary to lead a good life. A family needs work as well as bread. [b]Property is proper to man.[/b] We must keep repeating these things. [b]Eternal life begins now.[/b] "All the way to heaven is heaven, because He said, "I am the Way." [b]The cross is there, of course, but "in the cross is joy of spirit." And love makes all things easy."[/b] -Dorothy Day

Edited November 22, 2012 by Aloysius

[4588686]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1353557619' post='2514670']


[b]"We are not expecting Utopia here on this earth. But God meant things to be much easier than we have made them.[/b] A man has a natural right to food, clothing, and shelter. A certain amount of goods is necessary to lead a good life. A family needs work as well as bread. [b]Property is proper to man.[/b] We must keep repeating these things. [b]Eternal life begins now.[/b] "All the way to heaven is heaven, because He said, "I am the Way." [b]The cross is there, of course, but "in the cross is joy of spirit." And love makes all things easy."[/b] -Dorothy Day
[/quote]


That quote isn't out of line with anarchic thought. They usually distinguish between personal and private property.

[Amppax]

I liked this thread. It makes me feel, in a strange way, better about politics.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Amppax

[KnightofChrist]

What kind of Anarchist praises statist dictators as secular saints? What kind of saint repeatedly disobeys her bishop?

 

 

[Nihil Obstat]

What kind of Anarchist praises statist dictators as secular saints? What kind of saint repeatedly disobeys her bishop?

 

Were you planning on backing up any of that, or just leaving it as unsubstantiated accusations?

[Winchester]

What kind of Saint tells the Pope to get his ass back to Rome?

[KnightofChrist]

Were you planning on backing up any of that, or just leaving it as unsubstantiated accusations?

I can't get to it right now but there is plenty of evidence in Dr Carol Byrne's book " The Catholic Worker Movement, critical analysis".

I read it more for Day's direct quotes than Dr. Byrne's comments. Anyway she offers solid and damning proof that Day praised Communists and Communism. I can send you a copy if you would like to read for yourself, if you have not. FB pm me your addy if you'd like to take up that offer.

[KnightofChrist]

Oh and Day's Bishop repeatedly requested that she remove the name "Catholic" from her publication, she refused to obey.

[Nihil Obstat]

Unfortunately I do not have time to read another book just at the moment, so I will need to see verifiable quotes and whatnot.

[KnightofChrist]

Unfortunately I do not have time to read another book just at the moment, so I will need to see verifiable quotes and whatnot.

Well I'll have to find the dang book first. I couldda just bought it for you man.

[Nihil Obstat]

I appreciate the offer. :)

[Apotheoun]

I know that Dorothy Day was a liturgical anarchist, and that she allowed all sorts of experimentation during the Masses held at the Catholic Worker Movement facility in New York.

[KnightofChrist]

This book store site has some of the quotes from the book, with some direct quotes of Day's. Click free preview.



http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000381403/The-Catholic-Worker-Movement-19331980-A-Critical-Analysis.aspx

[Era Might]

Anyway she offers solid and damning proof that Day praised Communists and Communism.

 

Dorothy Day also ate with tax collectors and prostitutes. She was a dangerous one.

[Aloysius]

Dorothy Day was once a communist, but she converted.  The description of that self-published book Knight of Christ has linked to shows enormous leaps of logic, maybe it's better articulated in the book but it is clear to me that the basis of the argument in the preview is that she didn't conform to the author's standards of liberal capitalism and therefore she was an evil communist.  It is possible to have some sympathy for some of the goals of socialists and communists; indeed, the magisterial condemnations of socialism starting with Rerum Novarum onwards are always offered in this type of context, the recognition that there is indeed great injustice but that their solutions which deny private property are the wrong types of solutions.  The contempt for "social justice" in that review comes in stark contrast to the Church's actual teaching.  She "sided with the communists" about as much as I sided with Barack Obama in this election: ie, only to the simple un-subtle dichotomized mind could she be painted that way.  Her stance on Spain's civil war basically says it all in that regard: both the left and fellow Catholics were enraged by her refusal to take a side, she could not support the communists but she also felt she could not support Franco.  sometimes two options really are just so dismal on both ends that you can't side with either... which is what Dorothy Day felt about both communism and capitalism, and she was right in many respects.  But the big leap of logic in the book review on that self-published hit-piece on Dorothy is where it basically says that because of her association with x, y, and z people, we therefore cannot believe her when she argues against government solutions and the reason to be against her is because she's in favor of big government communism.  She was always very much opposed to that, her anarchism was very absolute in that regard, so when the leap from critiquing Dorothy Day goes on to critique State Communism and its evils and totalitarianism, it has completely left the realm of Dorothy Day's positions.  She did not represent any kind of state communism by any stretch of the imagination.

 

When faced with the question between Socialism and Capitalism, between Communism and Fascism, Dorothy Day pretty clearly chose the option of simply directly helping the poor and living out the gospel in the most radical and loving way possible.

 

As regards the liturgy, I never heard of her giving too much leeway or liturgical anarchy or whatever, she was very much attached to the liturgy especially the sacrificial nature of it (and relatively uneasy about the overemphasis of the meal aspect following the Second Vatican Council), and I don't think she ever tried to usurp the authority of priests or bishops but treated the liturgies she went to as something received by her, not within her control.  She mentions liking the dialogue masses that she participated in, and following the Second Vatican Council she expresses a certain unease about some of the novelties going on in the mass, though she does say she enjoyed some guitar masses and such, she also said she didn't think that those should be the norm, she felt they should only done on special occasions and such... but overall she would more just reference what was permitted by the Church, not really believing she had any say in that, offering some unease about some of the things being permitted and expressing what she got out of the things that were permitted.  The idea that she was causing some sort of liturgical rebellion just doesn't jive with the tone with which I've heard her describe the liturgy; quite possibly there might have been a priest doing something odd that she didn't stop, but back then there wasn't this attitude of the laity as the liturgy-police as we've seen crop up after so many years of abuses so I think it'd be totally unfair to paint her that way.  But again, I've never seen this claim so I'd have to hear more about it.

 

She did say that if the Bishop ever ordered her to stop publishing that she would, if the Bishop ordered her to close down some charitable work she was doing, she'd redirect all the people coming for help to the Bishop's office, which is a very good answer.  I know some of the associations she had make some people uncomfortable, but she was actually radically opposed to government programs and she had a devotion to helping the poor directly much more than she had any sorts of political aims.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Aloysius

[beatitude]

The description of that self-published book Knight of Christ has linked to shows enormous leaps of logic, maybe it's better articulated in the book but it is clear to me that the basis of the argument in the preview is that she didn't conform to the author's standards of liberal capitalism and therefore she was an evil communist.

 

Carol Byrne? I've come across her before. She's active in the SSPX in the northeast of England, and she sees communists and socialists everywhere, on the flimsiest of evidence. A lot of her writing has a very conspiratorial flavour. She argues that distributism as a political philosophy isn't Catholic at all. Her most recent 'expose' of Dorothy Day is an article showing an elderly Day holding an anti-war sign, captioned, "Picketing for pacifism even in her old age." This is apparently 'proof' that Day hadn't changed at all and was still secretly a communist. Because pacifism always was just a clever communist ploy. Or something. This is not exactly shining scholarly work we have here.

[theculturewarrior]

Thanks for posting this, Aloyisius!  I am definitely going to read more about her.  I am a huge Noam Chomsky fan so it will be cool to read what he read in admiration.  I don't know how I got away with not knowing this stuff for so long.

Edited December 1, 2012 by theculturewarrior