"praying To" Mary And The Saints

[Katholikos]

We've been around this bush before, many times.

Some Protestants have just recently joined who have questions about our relationship to Mary, so I wanted to bring the subject up again.

We don't view 'praying to Mary' or the saints any differently than Protestants do when they ask for a friend's intercessory prayer. "But they're dead," comes the objection.

Scripture tells us that when someone dies in Christ, that they aren't dead
at all. They are actually more alive than we are. Mt 22:32, Mk 12:27, Lk 20:38.

The Biblical reasons Catholics ask the saints to intercede for them:

1--All Christians are members of Christ's body and one another - Rom 12:5

2--Jesus has only one body - Eph 4:4, Col 3:15.

3--Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another - Rom 8:35-39

4--Christians are bound in mutual love - Rom 12:10, 1 Thess 5:11 Gal 6:2

We are members of Christ's one body, united in His divine life even beyond the grave, and concerned with each other's salvation and growth in God's family. In
that union, we call for help and support from our older brothers and sisters who have already won their crown of glory.

Just as in our human families we naturally turn to our siblings for aid and example, how much more should we turn to our supernatural family for help and
inspiration.

[This is not my original work, guys. I cut and pasted it and failed to make a note of its source. I just tweaked it a little.]

C'mon, Catholics -- explain yourselves.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[Dave]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='May 25 2004, 09:00 PM'] C'mon, Catholics -- explain yourselves.

[/quote]
Likos, it seems to me you've already done exactly that.

[mulls]

1. Romans 12:5- speaking of being a living (on this earth) sacrifice, and spiritual gifts.


2. Ephesians 4:4- "There is one Body and one Spirit...." ok, beautiful.

Colssians 3:15- "Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful."

ok, very nice. but hardly reasons to pray to those on the other side.


3. Romans 8:35-39

verse 39: "neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

nothing will separate us from Christ's love. does not speak of the dead in Christ. again, hardly a reason to pray to those on the other side.



4. "Christians are bound in mutual love"

of course, but again, a poor reason to talk to those on the other side.





see, you always accuse protestants of making Scripture say what we want it to, but you are guilty of the same thing. to infer that those passages are about dead Christians that are alive in Christ intercessing for us is nothing short of....well, i could say anything here, but you get the point.

the fact is, you had to make those scriptures say those things.


[quote][This is not my original work, guys. I cut and pasted it and failed to make a note of its source. I just tweaked it a little.][/quote]


or maybe since this isn't your original work, you didn't bother to look up the passages yourself, and took them for granted. maybe i'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.

[P3chrmd]

[quote]Ave Cor Mariae[/quote]

Hey Likos...sorry latins off...what EXACLTY does this mean! IT sounds beautiful...and I know what it generally means...Hail Mary something! Im guessing....lol

[P3chrmd]

Mulls try reading Rev. 8 3-5 CAN IT BE ANY CLEARER! and also....being a christian you should know that people who die in Christ can still be reached...they are not DEAD they are more alive than we are! The theory that the folks in heaven can't hear us is such a man made theory!

Hebrews 12.1 speaks of "a great cloud of witnesses" who surround us, and who consist of the faithful holy ones of God. Many examples of these witnesses are given in the preceding Chapter 11 of Hebrews.

Later in the Bible we see this vision of heaven:

Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: ...and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

The twenty-four elders are shown offering the prayers of Christians to God; which is a mediatory role.

[Livin_the_MASS]

The Queen of heaven and earth Mary our Mother the Mother of God and the saints, I love them I ask for their prayers

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='May 25 2004, 08:00 PM'] We've been around this bush before, many times.

Some Protestants have just recently joined who have questions about our relationship to Mary, so I wanted to bring the subject up again.

We don't view 'praying to Mary' or the saints any differently than Protestants do when they ask for a friend's intercessory prayer. "But they're dead," comes the objection.

Scripture tells us that when someone dies in Christ, that they aren't dead
at all. They are actually more alive than we are. Mt 22:32, Mk 12:27, Lk 20:38.

The Biblical reasons Catholics ask the saints to intercede for them:

1--All Christians are members of Christ's body and one another - Rom 12:5

2--Jesus has only one body - Eph 4:4, Col 3:15.

3--Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another - Rom 8:35-39

4--Christians are bound in mutual love - Rom 12:10, 1 Thess 5:11 Gal 6:2

We are members of Christ's one body, united in His divine life even beyond the grave, and concerned with each other's salvation and growth in God's family. In
that union, we call for help and support from our older brothers and sisters who have already won their crown of glory.

Just as in our human families we naturally turn to our siblings for aid and example, how much more should we turn to our supernatural family for help and
inspiration.

[This is not my original work, guys. I cut and pasted it and failed to make a note of its source. I just tweaked it a little.]

C'mon, Catholics -- explain yourselves.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos [/quote]
Likos good stuff!!

[Katholikos]

[quote name='P3chrmd' date='May 25 2004, 11:17 PM']
Hey Likos...sorry latins off...what EXACLTY does this mean! IT sounds beautiful...and I know what it generally means...Hail Mary something! Im guessing....lol [/quote]
"Cor" means heart

It is a greeting and farewell often used by member of Miles Jesu, a religious lay institute.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 25 2004, 10:57 PM']1. Romans 12:5- speaking of being a living (on this earth) sacrifice, and spiritual gifts.


2. Ephesians 4:4- "There is one Body and one Spirit...." ok, beautiful.

Colssians 3:15- "Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful."

ok, very nice. but hardly reasons to pray to those on the other side.


3. Romans 8:35-39

verse 39: "neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

nothing will separate us from Christ's love. does not speak of the dead in Christ. again, hardly a reason to pray to those on the other side.



4. "Christians are bound in mutual love"

of course, but again, a poor reason to talk to those on the other side.





see, you always accuse protestants of making Scripture say what we want it to, but you are guilty of the same thing. to infer that those passages are about dead Christians that are alive in Christ intercessing for us is nothing short of....well, i could say anything here, but you get the point.

the fact is, you had to make those scriptures say those things.





or maybe since this isn't your original work, you didn't bother to look up the passages yourself, and took them for granted. maybe i'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.[/quote]
Mulls,

The title of this thread is "Praying to" Mary and the Saints, Communion of Saints."

The verses you quote, cited in my original post, are meant to illustrate the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. The point of each verse is briefly summarized. We are all members of Christ's Body, the Church, and death does not separate us nor does communication cease, whether we are part of the Church Militant on earth or the Church Triumphant in heaven.

The Bible does not say, "Thou shalt pray to the Saints." But P3chrmd has given some excellent examples of prayers to the Saints in the Scriptures.

The Church does not say, "Thou shalt pray to the Saints." But the Church says we [i]may[/i] pray to the Saints, and that we will find it helpful if we do so. Who better to ask for prayers on our behalf than God's best friends? [i]Any friend of God's is a friend of mine[/i] (a book title by Patrick Madrid )

The Scriptures tell us that God is the God of the living, not the dead (Mt 22:32, Mk 12:27, Lk 20:38). Death is not final, but is the doorway to everlasting life. So Mary and the Saints are alive and, if we wish, we may ask them to pray for us.

It is a mistake to think that Catholics expect Mary and the Saints to answer our prayers themselves, though the floridity of our prayers might mislead one to this conclusion. But Mary is a human being like us, as are all the Saints, and they have no power but the power of prayer.

You know by now from being at phatmass that Christianity was not founded on the Bible; it was founded on the teaching Church that Christ established for the salvation of the world. The Bible was born from the Church almost 400 years later.

Examples of prayers to the Saints are found from the very beginning of Christianity. Prayers to St. Peter are carved on his tomb. Been there. Saw that. The catacombs have inscriptions -- prayers to the Saints -- carved into their walls and floors. Saw that, too.

Thanks for reading the thread and for your comments.

JMJ, Likos

[mulls]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='May 26 2004, 06:56 PM']

The verses you quote, cited in my original post, are meant to illustrate the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. [/quote]
gotcha, i guess this part threw me off:


[quote]The Biblical reasons Catholics ask the saints to intercede for them: [/quote]


and as for this:


[quote]It is a mistake to think that Catholics expect Mary and the Saints to answer our prayers themselves, though the floridity of our prayers might mislead one to this conclusion.[/quote]

i've seen much more "Mary, help me," than "Mary, pray for me, ask your Son to help me" in my time.

i'm glad you cleared that up for me.

[Archangel]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 26 2004, 02:58 PM']i've seen much more "Mary, help me," than "Mary, pray for me, ask your Son to help me" in my time. [/quote]
It's no surprise. You're still very young.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 26 2004, 06:58 PM']
i've seen much more "Mary, help me," than "Mary, pray for me, ask your Son to help me" in my time.

i'm glad you cleared that up for me.[/quote]
May I illustrate what I mean by florid prayers?

The oldest known written prayer to Mary is called the [i]Sub Tuum Praesidium [/i](Under Your Protection). It was found on a Greek papyrus dated c. A.D. 235.

[b][color=purple]"We turn to thee for protection, holy Mother of God,
Listen to our prayers and help us in our needs.
Save us from every danger,
O glorious and blessed Virgin."[/color][/b]

Catholics did not believe then, nor do we believe now, that Mary can "protect us," or "save us from every danger." We have known full well since the time Jesus walked this earth that His mother has no power but the power of prayer. She is a human being like us, not some goddess. But because we [b][i]know[/i][/b] she is going to intercede for us and present our prayers to her son, we get right to the point and pray "as if" we were talking to Jesus. We know what we mean. She knows what we mean. Jesus knows what we mean. And God the Father and the Holy Spirit know what we mean.

But if you, as a Protestant, were listening, you would go into shock, because you wouldn't know what we mean. (I didn't, but now I do.) Praying this way saves a lot of time. I call it "Catholic shorthand." It saves me from having to explain: Mary, I'm going to speak to your Son and ask him to . . . Will you also pray to him and ask Him to grant my request? I really need you to ask for this favor because . . ." The unspoken words are unnecessary because of our mutual understanding -- it's not what we say, but what we mean that counts.

It's the same with the Bible -- we all know what it says (we can read). But what do the words mean?

JPII credited Our Lady of Fatima for saving his life when he was shot. He was speaking "Catholic shorthand," too. I'll save that explanation for another post if you're interested.

As I've been saying, there are many more differences between Catholics and Protestants than biblical interpretation! Did you see my thread on worldview?

Thanks for "listening."

JMJ Jay (Likos)

[Crusader_4]

I was curious about something (this was never a hard doctrine for me to accept as i converted) but are there any other Christian groups that teach communion of the saints cuz when i was a little boy i would always pray to my relatives and ask them for their intercession until i was told it was taboo by some of my protestant friends when i was in gr. 4 ish and then when i converted i picked it up again and relazied the power and majesty behind it. I was just curious if it was soley an Catholic & Orthodox belief?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Crusader_4' date='May 26 2004, 10:52 PM'] I was curious about something (this was never a hard doctrine for me to accept as i converted) but are there any other Christian groups that teach communion of the saints cuz when i was a little boy i would always pray to my relatives and ask them for their intercession until i was told it was taboo by some of my protestant friends when i was in gr. 4 ish and then when i converted i picked it up again and relazied the power and majesty behind it. I was just curious if it was soley an Catholic & Orthodox belief? [/quote]
Classical Protestantism condems prayers to the saints. The Augsburg (Lutheran) Confession of 1530, after acknowledging that saints should be "kept in remembrance" and that "their good works are to be an example for us," states the following:

"However, it cannot be proved from the Scriptures that we are to invoke the saints or seek help from them, 'For there is one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus' (1 Tim. 2:5), who is the only savior, the only highpriest, advocate, and intercessor before God (Rom. 8:34). He alone promised to hear our prayers."

Reference: Creeds of the Churches, John H. Leith

There's more, but you get the picture.

Same arguments we still hear today, eh? -- a misunderstanding of the role of Christ as the one Mediator who opened heaven's gates and reconciled us with the Father, and the role of His 'intercessory assistants, or little 'm' subordinate mediators, His Mother and the Saints in heaven, whose job it is to pray for those still on earth, that we may hopefully attain heaven also.

Prayer to those we were close to who have gone on before us is the most natural thing in the world. They, too, are alive in Christ and want us to be with them in heaven.

JMJ Jay

[Mickey's_Girl]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='May 26 2004, 08:59 PM'] May I illustrate what I mean by florid prayers?

The oldest known written prayer to Mary is called the [i]Sub Tuum Praesidium [/i](Under Your Protection). It was found on a Greek papyrus dated c. A.D. 235.

[b][color=purple]"We turn to thee for protection, holy Mother of God,
Listen to our prayers and help us in our needs.
Save us from every danger,
O glorious and blessed Virgin."[/color][/b]

Catholics did not believe then, nor do we believe now, that Mary can "protect us," or "save us from every danger." We have known full well since the time Jesus walked this earth that His mother has no power but the power of prayer. She is a human being like us, not some goddess. But because we [b][i]know[/i][/b] she is going to intercede for us and present our prayers to her son, we get right to the point and pray "as if" we were talking to Jesus. We know what we mean. She knows what we mean. Jesus knows what we mean. And God the Father and the Holy Spirit know what we mean.

But if you, as a Protestant, were listening, you would go into shock, because you wouldn't know what we mean. (I didn't, but now I do.) Praying this way saves a lot of time. I call it "Catholic shorthand." It saves me from having to explain: Mary, I'm going to speak to your Son and ask him to . . . Will you also pray to him and ask Him to grant my request? I really need you to ask for this favor because . . ." The unspoken words are unnecessary because of our mutual understanding -- it's not what we say, but what we mean that counts.

It's the same with the Bible -- we all know what it says (we can read). But what do the words mean?

JPII credited Our Lady of Fatima for saving his life when he was shot. He was speaking "Catholic shorthand," too. I'll save that explanation for another post if you're interested.

As I've been saying, there are many more differences between Catholics and Protestants than biblical interpretation! Did you see my thread on worldview?

Thanks for "listening."

JMJ Jay (Likos) [/quote]
Oo, Likos--I wish I'd known about "Catholic shorthand" months ago! It would have saved me some drama over Mary, for instance (among other things). Can you start a new thread?

I appreciate your laying it out straight like that. Protestants need it spelled out sometimes.

MG