the lumberjack Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 to ANYONE I've had this discussion with: [quote]QUOTE Heretics cannot be considered Christians. Thank you, finally someone sees it the Old way of the Church. If Protestants, Fundamentalists are Christians, that opens up the gate to Ana-Baptists, Arians, Arius', Schismatics etc. Ive heard it told that by Priests, Bishops, Catholic Apologetists, Saints, Popes that Catholicism IS Christianity, its not a sect, or denomination but IS Christianity, yet everytime we accept another form of 'Christian', protestant we deny that we ARE Christianity and were just another sect in a big family of problems, Im sure I dont have to mention the problems outside the Church![/quote] this is what I mean... we're not even to be considered Christian, much less a part of the church... so who should I believe? the pre V II? or the post V II Catholics? why even bother to understand each other and try to build for Christ if I'm not even a Christian? you won't convert me, and I know I don't want to convert you... so why am I still here? God bless
Dave Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 All right, LJ, one more time ... The views of dissident traditionalists are in no way representative of what the Catholic Church really teaches. When certain people here claim that Protestants aren't Christians and that the Church even teaches that, they're wrong. The Church teaches no such thing. You really should be more quick to listen to those who are loyal to the Church. If you listen to heterodox traditionalists, all that will do is confirm your suspicions about the Church (at least in YOUR mind).
cmotherofpirl Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 (edited) [quote name='MorphRC' date='May 27 2004, 02:07 AM'] Pax Iesus Thank you, finally someone sees it the Old way of the Church. If Protestants, Fundamentalists are Christians, that opens up the gate to Ana-Baptists, Arians, Arius', Schismatics etc. Ive heard it told that by Priests, Bishops, Catholic Apologetists, Saints, Popes that Catholicism [b]IS[/b] Christianity, its not a sect, or denomination but IS Christianity, yet everytime we accept another form of 'Christian', protestant we deny that we ARE Christianity and were just another sect in a big family of problems, Im sure I dont have to mention the problems outside the Church! Pax Christi Iesus Paul. [/quote] Baptism makes you a christian. This is a basic tenet of Christianity. THere is no old way or new way, there is only ONE way. The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians CCC 1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82 So if you want to start spouting something different, understand that the Church does not agree with you. Edited May 27, 2004 by cmotherofpirl
homeschoolmom Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 [quote name='Anna' date='May 26 2004, 12:40 PM'] A soon-to-be Catholic couple here on phatmass (who shall remain nameless, ) encountered a bit of difficulty last year when planning their wedding. Their Baptist pastor was reluctant to marry them because they desired to dance at their own wedding reception. I'm not talking pole dancing here! Just plain ol' dancin'. Husband and wife, waltzing, for goo'ness sake. [/quote] Not to be argumentative or get off topic, but.... Said couple ([color=red]whom I love very much[/color] ) knew full well when they joined their church that dancing was not allowed. (and if they didn't, they should have.) And I'm sure as they planned their wedding, they knew this was going to be a problem. That pastor has the obligation to hold them and everyone else in his church to the standards of that congregation. I don't think you would feel the same way if it was a Catholic couple complaining that the priest wouldn't marry them while parachuting from a plane or something... Protestants have standards, too. And even if you don't agree with them, they have their reasons for having them... If said couple didn't like the standards their church taught, they could have done like so many people and gotten married by someone else. (and remember... I [color=red]love[/color] said couple!!!)
ICTHUS Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 Actually, I think that the "Evangelicals", in the process of Catholic bashing, see themselves as evangelizing non-Christians.
Katholikos Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 27 2004, 12:53 AM'] you won't convert me, and I know I don't want to convert you... so why am I still here? [/quote] Some Protestants have thought they'd find at least a few Catholic pushovers here, some uninformed souls who could be "saved" and "led to all truth." They came to phatmass only to "enlighten" us poor lost souls about the "true" and "biblical" way of "getting saved." Others have come genuinely wanting to learn about the Catholic Faith, not because they wanted to convert, but because they wanted to know the Truth about what we believe and why we believe it. Imagine that. They thought the best way to find out what the Catholic Church actually teaches is to ask a well-instructed Catholic -- and phatmass has many. Some came to find out what the Church teaches and have embraced the Truth. They are either Catholic now or on the journey (and you know who you are ). And some Protestants are still protest-ing. Whatever your reasons for being here, you're welcome. And if you decide to leave, we'll leave the light on for you. JMJ Likos
Katholikos Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 [quote name='ICTHUS' date='May 27 2004, 08:49 AM']Actually, I think that the "Evangelicals", in the process of Catholic bashing, see themselves as evangelizing non-Christians.[/quote] SHOUT IT OUT, ICTHUS !!!!!
Katholikos Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 26 2004, 12:44 PM']But being baptised makes you a member of the body of Christ.[/quote] Sure 'nuff does. Right on, Cmom!
Katholikos Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 26 2004, 01:07 PM'] you can call it what you want, likos...but I know that the differing groups exist. [/quote] Certainly, differing groups exist, Lumberjack. But anyone who does not accept the teachings of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is not Catholic, regardless of what they call themselves. The U.S. government defines who is a citizen and who is not. The Church defines who is Catholic and who is not. By definition, a Catholic is one who accepts what the Church teaches. It's a package deal. Take it or leave it. Those who assert their own authority over the Church's authority in matters of faith and morals have cut themselves off. Too bad. But they aren't Catholic. Oremus pro invicem, Likos
Quietfire Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 [quote]Some teach that women who wear pants or pearls violate "God's law."[/quote] Youre kidding me right? Or does that fall under.."dont throw pearls to swine".? QUOTE (Anna @ May 25 2004, 11:46 PM) Simple: Catholics aren't Christians. They are pagans. They pray before statues, and worship a cookie as God. They don't read the Bible. They need to be born again, baptized in the Holy Spirit, need to receive the gift of tongues, accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior, reject those pagan idols of saints and Mary, and get saved! Correct me if I'm wrong.... (oh, yeah, and quit all that drinkin' and dancin' and confessin' to a priest.) Pax Christi. <>< [quote]Come on, now, you know you're just being silly. All protestants don't believe that, not even all Evangelical denomination Christians believe that. My bible study teacher/worship leader is a member, and believes wholeheartedly in the gift of tongues, and ENCOURAGES dancing during song time. Make a joyful noise to the Lord, after all, and stomp your feet while you're doing it.[/quote] By the way Dusty, you'd be surprised to find that most people feel exactly that way about Catholics. Exactly what Anna described. Honestly. [quote]so why am I still here?[/quote] Hey! Where do ya think youre going? Sit back down. We're not done with you yet young man! he,he. [quote]Some came to find out what the Church teaches and have embraced the Truth. They are either Catholic now or on the journey (and you know who you are ).[/quote] the jig is up! Peace all.
Katholikos Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 [quote name='Dusty Fro' date='May 27 2004, 12:11 AM'] If you don't believe in accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, what is your religion worth? [/quote] Dusty, this is one of the many differences between Catholics and Protestants. Please allow me to explain. First, let me say that the more liturgical Protestants (as far as I know) do not participate in this "accepting Christ" theology in the way other Protestants understand it. It is peculiar to those of a more Evangelical or Fundamentalist persuasion. When an Evangelical or Fundamentalist Protestant refers to "accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior," most of them would have reference to some public event in which a person "goes forward" or "stands up" or otherwise acknowledges before the congregation that he is "confessing with his mouth" that he now "accepts Jesus Christ to be his personal Lord and Savior." It's a Protestant ritual, with specific rules of conduct. By this act of acceptance, Christ comes into his heart and he is "saved" and "born again." Some believe the salvation is permanent, i.e., it cannot be lost through sin; that this one act of acceptance or belief suspends the rules of behavior (the Commandments) for this "saved" person and he need not worry -- ever -- that he won't go to heaven, no matter what he does. God cannot (or will not) punish any future sins that this individual may commit. He's on the express train to heaven, and nothing he does can derail him. He's "home free" -- forever. Others do not subscribe to this Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine. Catholics do not think in these terms. If you ask a Catholic if he has "accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior" he'll probably answer, "Say what?" In truth, Catholics publicly "confess with their lips, answer the altar call, and accept Jesus Christ" every Sunday when they receive Holy Communion. To paraphrase Dr. Scott Hahn, former Presbyterian minister and Catholic convert, a Catholic receives Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior into his heart, into his mouth, onto his tongue, into his tummy, and assimilates Him into his body and soul. "So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him' " (Jn 6:53-56). Every Christian who has been baptized ("born of water and the Spirit") has been "born again" (John 3:3-5). Being "born again" by "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior" is a man-made doctrine, unknown for the first 1,500 years of Christianity. It is not found in the Bible. Peace be to you and to all who dwell in the land of phatmass. JMJ Likos
the lumberjack Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 so Cmom, and likos, you guys are saying that these pre VII Catholics AREN'T really Catholics? so who can I believe IS a catholic? I DID come to see what you guys believe and why you believe it, and to share the same about me with you... and even if I am one of the brothers on here protesting, I'm only doing so to learn... God bless.
Katholikos Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 Quietfire, You asked about this statement: [b][color=blue]Some teach that women who wear pants or pearls violate "God's law." Anyone who commits such acts is regarded as a sinner.[/color][/b] Here are the Scriptures: [i]"...women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, [u]not with braided hair or gold or pearls[/u] or costly attire but by good deeds as befits women who profess religion"[/i] 1 Tm 2:9. "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God" Dt 22:5. God bless and Mary keep, Jay (Likos)
Livin_the_MASS Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 [quote]so Cmom, and likos, you guys are saying that these pre VII Catholics AREN'T really Catholics? so who can I believe IS a catholic? I DID come to see what you guys believe and why you believe it, and to share the same about me with you... and even if I am one of the brothers on here protesting, I'm only doing so to learn... God bless.[/quote] *ducks down low says* [b]Development of doctrine![/b] *ducks back down sneeks out door* :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:
Katholikos Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 26 2004, 01:19 PM'] still grows better when you pile carp on it... hahahaha...jk...well, not really, I mean it DOES grow better with fertilizer... but you know... [/quote] No, I don't know. Please explain the meaning of this.
Katholikos Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 27 2004, 01:33 PM'] so Cmom, and likos, you guys are saying that these pre VII Catholics AREN'T really Catholics? so who can I believe IS a catholic? I DID come to see what you guys believe and why you believe it, and to share the same about me with you... and even if I am one of the brothers on here protesting, I'm only doing so to learn... God bless. [/quote] Cmom, That's odd, I don't remember saying that Pre VII Catholics aren't really Catholics. Did you say that? I don't recall you mentioning Pre Vatican II Catholics either. All I know is, a Catholic is one who believes what the Catholic Church teaches. BTW, I'm a Pre-VII Catholic. And I believe what the Catholic Church teaches. You too, huh? BTW, Lumberjack, if you're my brother, because we both share in the brotherhood of Jesus, then Mary is your mother. No denying it. If we are brothers, we have the same mother as Jesus. Get it?
the lumberjack Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 please, if you understand what I'm TRYING to ask, just clarify...thats what I need. I'll get to the rest of the post later...I need clarification as to what "catholic" to believe and who not... as I tried stating in my last post...and kinda what Cmom was alluding to in her last post. God bless.
Dusty Fro Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 [quote]Catholics do not think in these terms. If you ask a Catholic if he has "accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior" he'll probably answer, "Say what?"[/quote] Why? Because of the language, or because that's not a major part of Catholic faith?
Ellenita Posted May 27, 2004 Posted May 27, 2004 Dusty Fro, please read the whole of Likos' post - it is pretty clear in answering your question!
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