Is This Heretical?

[mortify]

As far as the statement goes, it completely depends on the context and what the speaker means. 

 

Does it mean that John the Baptist protect Islam so that Islam may one day destroy Catholicism? 
 

Does it mean that John the Baptist protect Islam so that Islam may one day grow in understanding of the truth and one day come to accept Christ as savior, and in the meantime help Muslims live as virtuous people bearing witness to the God of Abraham? 

 

My dear, you are confusing Islam the religion with Muslims the people. Religions don't grow to one day understand the truth, people do. Islam is a false religion, plain and simple. The Quran explicitly rejects the divinity of Christ, explicitly rejects the crucifixion ever happening, explicitly sanctions waging war against Christians and Jews until we submit to Islamic dominion. Muslims are lost souls in need of evangelization and unity in the Church. This is how I understood Catholicism but perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps Islam is also efficacious with leading souls to heaven and in that case may it reign and grow until Kingdom come. Perhaps prior popes were just short sighted men, victims of their times, but now at least the modern world with its contemporary philosphies and science is able to make us know the real truth.

[Papist]

What is your point? I fail to see any benefits of your harping on this statement.

[Gabriela]

My dear, you are confusing Islam the religion with Muslims the people. Religions don't grow to one day understand the truth, people do. Islam is a false religion, plain and simple. The Quran explicitly rejects the divinity of Christ, explicitly rejects the crucifixion ever happening, explicitly sanctions waging war against Christians and Jews until we submit to Islamic dominion. Muslims are lost souls in need of evangelization and unity in the Church. This is how I understood Catholicism but perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps Islam is also efficacious with leading souls to heaven and in that case may it reign and grow until Kingdom come. Perhaps prior popes were just short sighted men, victims of their times, but now at least the modern world with its contemporary philosphies and science is able to make us know the real truth.

 

I believe your calling all the women you respond to "my dear" is perceived as offensive. You should stop that if you don't want to annoy people.

[mortify]

What is your point? I fail to see any benefits of your harping on this statement.

 

Truth is the point, and perhaps I have been mistaken. I take matters of faith seriously, call me naive.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I actually think what he said is rather vague, and could be taken in different ways. For that reason I think it was imprudent of him to say it, but a heretical interpretation does not necessarily follow from the text.

[Papist]

Truth is the point, and perhaps I have been mistaken. I take matters of faith seriously, call me naive.

 

So the Pope saying this effects truth how?  I don't see how it should impact your faith. 

[Apotheoun]

 I don't see how it should impact your faith. 

I tend to agree with you, because this comment about Islam certainly has had no impact upon my faith. I see it as just one of many inappropriate things done by Pope John Paul II during his long pontificate. But no one ever said that a pope will always act or speak in an appropriate manner. For example: Pope Stephen VI had the body of his predecessor, Pope Formosus, exhumed from its grave and put on trial in what has come to be known as the Cadaver Synod.

[Apotheoun]

I actually think what he said is rather vague, and could be taken in different ways. For that reason I think it was imprudent of him to say it, but a heretical interpretation does not necessarily follow from the text.

I would say that the "prayer" quoted in the poll is at face value unorthodox, but if you look at the Vatican's German language version of the pope's remarks in Jordan on 21 March 2000, the bizarre comment is not present. Quite honestly I think that the prepared remarks end somewhat earlier than the quoted comment, and that the quotation (as infelicitous as it is) is probably an off the cuff remark meant to convey diplomatic niceties to the King of Jordan and the Jordanian people. Should the pope have said it? No.

[mortify]

So the Pope saying this effects truth how?  I don't see how it should impact your faith. 

 

Can the Vicar of Christ preach heresy?

[Apotheoun]

Can the Vicar of Christ preach heresy?

Pope Benedict XII condemned his predecessor Pope John XXII for preaching heresy on the fate of the dead and the last judgment.

[mortify]

Pope Benedict XII condemned his predecessor Pope John XXII for preaching heresy on the fate of the dead and the last judgment.

 

The doctrine of saved souls seeing the Beatific Vision after death was not defined at the time of Pope John XXII's election. That said, prior to his election he certainly did believe that souls enjoy the beatific vision only after the resurrection, but after consulting theologians he retracted this view and accepted the now formative teaching. Unfortunately I'm not sure the same argument can be used for Blessed John Paul II. And just as an aside, where did Benedict XII condemn John XXII? The former solemenly defined the dogma of the immediacy of the beatific vision.

[Apotheoun]

The doctrine of saved souls seeing the Beatific Vision after death was not defined at the time of Pope John XXII's election. That said, prior to his election he certainly did believe that souls enjoy the beatific vision only after the resurrection, but after consulting theologians he retracted this view and accepted the now formative teaching. Unfortunately I'm not sure the same argument can be used for Blessed John Paul II. And just as an aside, where did Benedict XII condemn John XXII? The former solemenly defined the dogma of the immediacy of the beatific vision.

It didn't have to be defined because it was always believed prior to Pope John XXII teaching heresy on the issue. The only reason Pope Benedict issued his decree, which Easterners did not even know about at the time, is because Pope John XXII taught error.

[havok579257]

what is the point of harping on what the Pope who is now dead said years ago?  If this one statement changes you from accepting catholisim to rejecting it then I suspect you need to speak to a priest or a spiritual director.  Cause if your going to deny the complete truth of the catholic church due to one non infallable statement then there are probobly bigger issues deep down inside.

[Apotheoun]

The idea that something is only true after it is defined on a certain date, in a certain document, is quite foreign to the Patristic tradition of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

[Apotheoun]

what is the point of harping on what the Pope who is now dead said years ago?  If this one statement changes you from accepting catholisim to rejecting it then I suspect you need to speak to a priest or a spiritual director.  Cause if your going to deny the complete truth of the catholic church due to one non infallable statement then there are probobly bigger issues deep down inside.

It is important because words have meaning. Now, it is likely that the pope in question was speaking off the cuff and probably said something that he would not have said had he given it more thought. After all, no one can pray for God or the saints to protect error, or heresy, or evil. The whole idea is nonsensical.

[havok579257]

It is important because words have meaning. Now, it is likely that the pope in question was speaking off the cuff and probably said something that he would not have said had he given it more thought. After all, no one can pray for God or the saints to protect error, or heresy, or evil. The whole idea is nonsensical.

 

 

words have meaning yes but one non infalliable statment should not drive someone from the faith.  If it does there must be more deep down that they are dealing with.

 

Not to mention the Pope is dead now, it is a non infalliable statement and there is no point to harp on something that happened years ago.  time to move on.

[Apotheoun]

words have meaning yes but one non infalliable statment should not drive someone from the faith.  If it does there must be more deep down that they are dealing with.

 

Not to mention the Pope is dead now, it is a non infalliable statement and there is no point to harp on something that happened years ago.  time to move on.

I agree. I certainly wouldn't renounce faith in Christ because of something said by a bishop or a priest.

[Apotheoun]

One of the reasons that the debate table is so dead, and by that I mean reduced to nonsensical threads on the "historical Jesus," is that people seem to be hypersensitive to anything that they don't want to discuss.

[mortify]

It didn't have to be defined because it was always believed prior to Pope John XXII teaching heresy on the issue. The only reason Pope Benedict issued his decree, which Easterners did not even know about at the time, is because Pope John XXII taught error.

 

At the time of John XII's election it was the general belief but not defined. He can't be charged with formal heresy anymore than Thomas Aquinas for rejecting the immaculate conception. But either way, the point is that with John XXII he retracted his private opinion and died accepting the general belief. His successor first formally defined the Beatific Vision immediatly post death as dogma. This does not mean that is when the belief became into being, just that when it was formally defined.

[mortify]

words have meaning yes but one non infalliable statment should not drive someone from the faith.  If it does there must be more deep down that they are dealing with.

 

Not to mention the Pope is dead now, it is a non infalliable statement and there is no point to harp on something that happened years ago.  time to move on.

 

Yes, of course the issue is much greater than one statement. I've simply focused in on this one very specific comment for the sake of discussion. We can say that maybe this was an off cuff the remark and the Pope confused "Islam" with "Muslims" or just mispoke, never intending that God protect falsehood. But there are other issues which paint a particular pattern when it comes to our late Holy Father. This itself is a large issue of an even greater issue, namely the transformation the Church has made since the 1960s.